TFW Stock Shortages

Caaardiff said:

Two interesting documents (Freely available on google search) detailing the future CAF fleet, 158, 175's & Loco specifications.
To summarise:
The long distance fleet (excluding loco & stock) with total seating capacity/standing capacity in brackets currently consists of:
158 - 24 (138/59)
175 2 car - 11 (134/58)
175 3 car - 16 (216/91)
Total = 51

CAF Civity order consist of:
2 car - 51 (121/79)
3 car without First Class - 12 (196/118)
3 car First Class ready (Depending on deployment strategy) - 14 (180/100) - 16 First seats

The CAF's are already a drop in capacity as a like for like swap and I get the impression that TfW are banking on increased frequencies to balance out current capacity issues. What I think TfW are missing is the fact that it's peak commuter services that need strengthening. Having more frequencies is great but I can't see it having a massive effect on those people that all want to travel at certain times of day. Most services can just about cope with 3 car 175's during the peak but the equivalent (standard only class) is a drop of 20 seats. I don't think having space for 37 extra standing passengers will go down well with travellers on distance services so unless they are planning on running peak services as 4 or even 5 car coupled units in place of single 3 car unit, then they may run in to issues.

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But we're going from 16 x 3 car units and 35 x 2 car units to 26 x 3 car and 51 x 2 car.

So there are an additional 10 x 3 car units which can replace 2 car units. And an additional 16 x 2 car units, added to which you have the 10 which have been replaced by 3 car units. That gives a lot of flexibility to double up some services which are currently only 1 unit, or replace a 3 car set with 2 x2 car. And we already know that the intention is to run a 5 car configuration between Swansea and Manchester (which admittedly will use up some of that extra capacity.)

The overall increase in seat numbers is from 8,242 to 11,262 or 37%, with a good mix of 2 and 3 car units to give flexibility to optimise the configuration of individual diagrams. Sounds pretty decent to me.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/fewer-seats-services-wales-gets-17295397

Reading this it seems that the FLIRTs will be a reduction in capacity from the 769s but are they an increase on the current status quo?

craigybagel said:

Unless there's been a change in plans I've missed there wasn't supposed to be any 3 car first class sets running by themselves. They were meant to be running between Manchester and Swansea coupled to another set to give a 5 car minimum. I don't recall seeing any plans to put them on Holyhead services - Holyhead getting it's 1st class provision from the 3 times a day MKIV provision

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Sorry, my bad; I should have made it clearer that 3-car Civity with 1st class on Holyhead-Cardiff was an assumption on my part. There are more Civities with 1st on-order than are required for just Swansea-Manchester, so some would likely be used elsewhere (given that TfW's plan is to work the Cambrian with only 21 Civities I think it is fairly safe to say that they aren't planning on having many, if any, hot spares). Holyhead-Cardiff seems the obvious one to use the remaining first class units on, given that no annoucements have been made re. introducing first class on any other route.

Tomos y Tanc said:

I'm not sure how great the demand will be on Manchester services though where the offer won't include a full dining service. It also seems rather strange to offer a First Class service to Manchester but not on the new services to Liverpool, a journey of a similar duration. Maybe Mancs have softer bottoms than scousers!

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Good point, maybe my assumption is wrong and the remaining 1st class Civities would be used on Cardiff-Liverpool but, again, we've had no announcements as to what those units would work.

Brissle Girl said:

But we're going from 16 x 3 car units and 35 x 2 car units to 26 x 3 car and 51 x 2 car.

So there are an additional 10 x 3 car units which can replace 2 car units. And an additional 16 x 2 car units, added to which you have the 10 which have been replaced by 3 car units. That gives a lot of flexibility to double up some services which are currently only 1 unit, or replace a 3 car set with 2 x2 car. And we already know that the intention is to run a 5 car configuration between Swansea and Manchester (which admittedly will use up some of that extra capacity.)

The overall increase in seat numbers is from 8,242 to 11,262 or 37%, with a good mix of 2 and 3 car units to give flexibility to optimise the configuration of individual diagrams. Sounds pretty decent to me.

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Don't forget that they will also be running more services than currently (an extra 1tph between Chester and Bangor and 0.5tph between Chester and Cardiff (portions of Liverpool trains) at the very least), meaning less available for strengthening existing services. The Cambrian for certain is not intended to have a single extra unit available (given that 3x 158 are diagrammed elsewhere) to run an increased-frequency service.

Caaardiff said:

https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Sched 1.6_Appendices Table 2a.pdf
https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Copy of Sched 1.6_Table 2b.pdf

Two interesting documents (Freely available on google search) detailing the future CAF fleet, 158, 175's & Loco specifications.
To summarise:
The long distance fleet (excluding loco & stock) with total seating capacity/standing capacity in brackets currently consists of:
158 - 24 (138/59)
175 2 car - 11 (134/58)
175 3 car - 16 (216/91)
Total = 51

CAF Civity order consist of:
2 car - 51 (121/79)
3 car without First Class - 12 (196/118)
3 car First Class ready (Depending on deployment strategy) - 14 (180/100) - 16 First seats

The CAF's are already a drop in capacity as a like for like swap and I get the impression that TfW are banking on increased frequencies to balance out current capacity issues. What I think TfW are missing is the fact that it's peak commuter services that need strengthening. Having more frequencies is great but I can't see it having a massive effect on those people that all want to travel at certain times of day. Most services can just about cope with 3 car 175's during the peak but the equivalent (standard only class) is a drop of 20 seats. I don't think having space for 37 extra standing passengers will go down well with travellers on distance services so unless they are planning on running peak services as 4 or even 5 car coupled units in place of single 3 car unit, then they may run in to issues.

Secondly, and more current, there is currently a diagrammed 3 car 175 on Cardiff-Ebbw Vale and 158 on Maesteg-Cheltenham, the rest are 150's or even currently some Pacers on Cardiff - Ebbw Vale. That will hopefully help with capacity issues on the Marches on 2 175 car diagrams and with 158 capacity issues on Cambrian/Birmingham lines. Quite often lately Shrewsbury-Birmingham runs have been short formed due to fleet issues.

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so a typical 4 coach service from brum to Machynlleth will see 34 less seats on them services, but don’t worry there will be an overall capacity increase of 6 on each 4 coach set as more people will get the pleasure of standing for up to 2 and a half hours (150minutes)........ yes there may be extra aber services which is how they are going to spin the capacity increase no doubt. These train aren’t just packed in the core school holidays ,they can frequently be packed outside of the core school holidays to.

It's worth noting that unlike Arriva, Keolis Amey/TfW are required to order more trains in future if demand exceeds capacity. So if the new trains ordered don't meet demand, more follow on orders will have to be made.

The question is obviously come the late 2020s when that would happen, will ordering more diesel only DMUs even be allowed as the UK pushes towards eliminating diesel only powered transport

Cambrian359 said:

so a typical 4 coach service from brum to Machynlleth will see 34 less seats on them services, but don’t worry there will be an overall capacity increase of 6 on each 4 coach set as more people will get the pleasure of standing for up to 2 and a half hours (150minutes)........ yes there may be extra aber services which is how they are going to spin the capacity increase no doubt. These train aren’t just packed in the core school holidays ,they can frequently be packed outside of the core school holidays to.

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And that just to Machynlleth ,if your off to Barmouth,Harlech Pwllheli etc then you’ve got up to another 2 hours standing on top if you manage to fit yourself into the 2 remaining carriages heading that way otherwise it’s a wait for the supplemental bus!

43096 said:

One is Alstom, one is Bombardier. The answer is pretty obvious!

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True, but Bombardier's 221 and Alstom's 390 are willing to couple and talk to each other (to a limited extent). So it might not always be so obvious.

krus_aragon said:

True, but Bombardier's 221 and Alstom's 390 are willing to couple and talk to each other (to a limited extent). So it might not always be so obvious.

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because they both have TMSs and they were both designed for Virgin...? the Bombardier 221s even have some Alstom parts (traction motors)

Cardiff123 said:

The question is obviously come the late 2020s when that would happen, will ordering more diesel only DMUs even be allowed as the UK pushes towards eliminating diesel only powered transport

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By the late 2020s I fervently hope that there will be some further electrification planned (or in progress) in Wales, so that simple DMUs aren't a reasonable consideration anyway: bi-modes as a minimum!

anamyd said:

because they both have TMSs and they were both designed for Virgin...? the Bombardier 221s even have some Alstom parts (traction motors)

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Exactly. Admittedly, they're the exception that proves the rule, but it also shows that someone who's only familiar with WCML rolling stock might think the same is practical with other units too.

Brissle Girl said:

But we're going from 16 x 3 car units and 35 x 2 car units to 26 x 3 car and 51 x 2 car.

So there are an additional 10 x 3 car units which can replace 2 car units. And an additional 16 x 2 car units, added to which you have the 10 which have been replaced by 3 car units. That gives a lot of flexibility to double up some services which are currently only 1 unit, or replace a 3 car set with 2 x2 car. And we already know that the intention is to run a 5 car configuration between Swansea and Manchester (which admittedly will use up some of that extra capacity.)

The overall increase in seat numbers is from 8,242 to 11,262 or 37%, with a good mix of 2 and 3 car units to give flexibility to optimise the configuration of individual diagrams. Sounds pretty decent to me.

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True, we are going from 51 long distance 158's & 175's, but i'm guessing that some of these new trains will need to replace 150's on other routes, such as Chester - Liverpool, Chester - Crewe, Shrewsbury - Crewe, Pembroke Dock & Fishguard Harbour branches.

I'm just hoping peak time services will get a capacity increase as in multiple units rather than extra services. My point being (Random schedule used for example), everyone wants to catch the 1700 from Manchester back to Cardiff, which will still be a 3 car unit (with less seating capacity), but that doesn't matter because there's another service 30mins+ behind it!
Also there are currently no coupled up long distance services scheduled to run South/North. There are a few running across the North Wales coast, the main one that comes to mind is the approx. 1715 Manchester - Llandudno/Holyhead which is 2x 2car 175's which splits at Chester.

I've not seen anything to confirm multiple units running Swansea - Manchester, is it documented anywhere? That would obviously solve any capacity issues on peak services and hopefully platform lengths won't be an issue as it currently is. I'm guessing the new trains will have SDO in order to manage that?
Depending on how the swanline stations are put into the mix and I think one of the Abergavenny platforms can't currently take a 5 car 175?

Personally I'm quite excited with the plans that are being put in place and I hope it pays off. The ultimate goal I would hope is to make travelling by train not just a more comfortable for those that currently use the network as they have no choice, but also attract more travellers that may opt to avoid train travel due to the current mess the network is in. Hopefully better quality service may eventually warrant a minimum 4 car service South/North constantly.

All I will say about the CAFs is that nothing is set in stone yet in terms of allocations, including how many and what type of unit (2 car or 3 car) will have ERTMS fitted. Figures were doing the rounds at one point but those aren't final figures, not until the units are actually built.

Caaardiff said:

I'm just hoping peak time services will get a capacity increase as in multiple units rather than extra services. My point being (Random schedule used for example), everyone wants to catch the 1700 from Manchester back to Cardiff, which will still be a 3 car unit (with less seating capacity), but that doesn't matter because there's another service 30mins+ behind it!
Also there are currently no coupled up long distance services scheduled to run South/North. There are a few running across the North Wales coast, the main one that comes to mind is the approx. 1715 Manchester - Llandudno/Holyhead which is 2x 2car 175's which splits at Chester.

I've not seen anything to confirm multiple units running Swansea - Manchester, is it documented anywhere? That would obviously solve any capacity issues on peak services and hopefully platform lengths won't be an issue as it currently is. I'm guessing the new trains will have SDO in order to manage that?
Depending on how the swanline stations are put into the mix and I think one of the Abergavenny platforms can't currently take a 5 car 175?

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Lots of platforms North of Newport that can't take more then 4 coaches - Abergavenny (down), Leominster (both), Ludlow (down) and all the stations between Shrewsbury and Crewe (Whitchurch can take 5 on the down but every where else is between 2 and 4 maximum). Also Chirk and Ruabon are 4 Max in both directions. The CAFs will be fitted with some form of SDO. Bearing in mind there is no way to increase capacity on the Manchester services other then by lengthening the trains themselves - there isn't the track capacity for a 2nd path each hour.

Caaardiff said:

I've not seen anything to confirm multiple units running Swansea - Manchester, is it documented anywhere? That would obviously solve any capacity issues on peak services and hopefully platform lengths won't be an issue as it currently is. I'm guessing the new trains will have SDO in order to manage that?
Depending on how the swanline stations are put into the mix and I think one of the Abergavenny platforms can't currently take a 5 car 175?

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It's not explicitly documented, but this page from the franchise launch states that there'll be new 2- and 3-car DMUs on Milford-Manchester services, but the First Class service they're introducing is only described as being between Swansea and Manchester. The only way of squaring that circle is that there'll be two units coupled together for Manchester-Swansea, with only one continuing to Carmarthen/Milford.

Several forum members did some number crunching at the time, and based on the number of units on order and the number needed for each diagram, concluded that the First Class units would be the 3-car units (which was backed up by the documents you liked to earlier) with a 2-car unit standard class unit continuing into West Wales.

(We also concluded that the 3-car unit would have to be at the country end at Manchester, in order to release the 2-car unit at Swansea to continue on its journey, and have sufficient turnaround time before couling to an inbound 2-car before returning to Manchester. The relevant stuff is around page 14 of this thread.)

Cambrian359 said:

so a typical 4 coach service from brum to Machynlleth will see 34 less seats on them services, but don’t worry there will be an overall capacity increase of 6 on each 4 coach set as more people will get the pleasure of standing for up to 2 and a half hours (150minutes)........ yes there may be extra aber services which is how they are going to spin the capacity increase no doubt. These train aren’t just packed in the core school holidays ,they can frequently be packed outside of the core school holidays to.

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Sounds awful, except the journey time quoted is from New St to Machynlleth (and 150 mins is rounded up by around 10 mins as well). In reality if someone gets on at New St and doesn't get a seat, they'll get a seat at the first or second stop down the line when people get off. So all this talk about people standing for 2 1/2 hours is pure exaggeration. And that's probably true from Shrewsbury as well, if that's the pinch point for capacity, although admittedly 21mins to Welshpool is not ideal.

Another important factor on the new CAF long distance DMUs will be luggage storage space.
Currently you can't fit anything bigger than a backpack in the overhead compartment of a 175 and I've been on a Manchester - Cardiff 175 trip in the summer where there was so much luggage on board, but so little space for it, that it was all piled up in the disabled area.
There obviously needs to be much better luggage storage areas and bigger overhead racks on the new CAF DMUs to ensure luggage isn't taking up seating and standing space.

Brissle Girl said:

Sounds awful, except the journey time quoted is from New St to Machynlleth (and 150 mins is rounded up by around 10 mins as well). In reality if someone gets on at New St and doesn't get a seat, they'll get a seat at the first or second stop down the line when people get off. So all this talk about people standing for 2 1/2 hours is pure exaggeration. And that's probably true from Shrewsbury as well, if that's the pinch point for capacity, although admittedly 21mins to Welshpool is not ideal.

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From international to Machynlleth where most services start from is about 2hours 40 minutes according live timings a just checked(admittedly it occasionally pulls into Mach a few minutes earlier) having stood from brum to Mach myself before and from brum to beyond Welshpool several times I can tell you it’s not exaggeration....... yes in reality people do get off between new street and Telford but just as many if not more get back on heading to the coast from April-September.
Getting on at international usually bags me a seat but news street onwards during the season and it can be tough luck......I’ve witnessed people stand to Mach many times and then have to continue standing on the Pwllheli portion so please don’t make me out to be a liar,I’m only stating what I have experienced and seen with my own eyes.

Cardiff123 said:

Another important factor on the new CAF long distance DMUs will be luggage storage space.
Currently you can't fit anything bigger than a backpack in the overhead compartment of a 175 and I've been on a Manchester - Cardiff 175 trip in the summer where there was so much luggage on board, but so little space for it, that it was all piled up in the disabled area.
There obviously needs to be much better luggage storage areas and bigger overhead racks on the new CAF DMUs to ensure luggage isn't taking up seating and standing space.

(Personally I also think anyone who insists on taking up a seat on a busy train with their luggage or shopping should be forced to by another ticket)

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The overhead racks on 175s are awful (a shame, because in every other respect they're great trains.) I use a small suitcase which fits fine on the much criticised racks on Pendolinos, snugly just fits on Voyagers, but no chance on a 175, so it either ends up pointlessly using space in the floor rack, or taking up space next to me when that's full - which as you say is often.

mmh said:

The overhead racks on 175s are awful (a shame, because in every other respect they're great trains.) I use a small suitcase which fits fine on the much criticised racks on Pendolinos, snugly just fits on Voyagers, but no chance on a 175, so it either ends up pointlessly using space in the floor rack, or taking up space next to me when that's full - which as you say is often.

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I do like 175s, and want some of the refurbed ones to stay long term, even though that's not planned, but they do have other weaknesses such as their tendency to set on fire!

Cambrian359 said:

From international to Machynlleth where most services start from is about 2hours 40 minutes according live timings a just checked(admittedly it occasionally pulls into Mach a few minutes earlier) having stood from brum to Mach myself before and from brum to beyond Welshpool several times I can tell you it’s not exaggeration....... yes in reality people do get off between new street and Telford but just as many if not more get back on heading to the coast from April-September.
Getting on at international usually bags me a seat but news street onwards during the season and it can be tough luck......I’ve witnessed people stand to Mach many times and then have to continue standing on the Pwllheli portion so please don’t make me out to be a liar,I’m only stating what I have experienced and seen with my own eyes.

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And yet I have been using the same route for more than 10 years and can say that i have rarely seen the service that crowded. Yes there are certain times of the day and if there are certain events on at the NEC that it can be crowded but you cannot generalise about it.

A good example will be the 0830 from Caersws this Saturday, with the Warley Model Railway Show and the Motorbike Show on at the NEC; I've seen that full with NO room by the time it got to Welshpool. The corresponding return around 1730 the same. I've got round it by catching the hour earlier up, and doing the same on the way back.

And this weekend I'm not even bothering to go with the WMT strike!

Llanigraham said:

And yet I have been using the same route for more than 10 years and can say that i have rarely seen the service that crowded. Yes there are certain times of the day and if there are certain events on at the NEC that it can be crowded but you cannot generalise about it.

A good example will be the 0830 from Caersws this Saturday, with the Warley Model Railway Show and the Motorbike Show on at the NEC; I've seen that full with NO room by the time it got to Welshpool. The corresponding return around 1730 the same. I've got round it by catching the hour earlier up, and doing the same on the way back.

And this weekend I'm not even bothering to go with the WMT strike!

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It’s usually the 12.10 from international I get up to Mach (10.43 virgin from Euston) perhaps I’m just picking the wrong train to get during the warmer seasonal months but the point of having less seats on an already busy service still stands.

Cardiff123 said:

It's worth noting that unlike Arriva, Keolis Amey/TfW are required to order more trains in future if demand exceeds capacity. So if the new trains ordered don't meet demand, more follow on orders will have to be made.

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Are they?

Cardiff123 said:

The question is obviously come the late 2020s when that would happen, will ordering more diesel only DMUs even be allowed as the UK pushes towards eliminating diesel only powered transport

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As it stands the Civity fleet isn't due to enter service in Wales until Dec 2022 at the earliest (I think most sources say 2023) - you could say that's already 'mid 2020s'. If a brand new fleet of pure unconstrained diesels doesn't look seriously outdated by then I fear we will be well beyond the point of no return regarding climate change. Not because of the new trains themselves (because even 77 units, massive in the scale of UK local railways, is probably a drop in the ocean globally) but because of the attitude accepting them would represent. A power source that looked just about acceptable a year ago when the franchise was announced is starting to look a seriously flawed decision.

krus_aragon said:

By the late 2020s I fervently hope that there will be some further electrification planned (or in progress) in Wales, so that simple DMUs aren't a reasonable consideration anyway: bi-modes as a minimum!

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Planned as part of the later stages of a rolling programme I hope, but I don't think any electrification actually IN Wales (other than in the south east Wales metro) is likely to actually be implemented by 2050. Not because I don't think it should happen but because it takes time to put the wires up and you'd save alot more diesel by wiring up CrossCountry, major freight routes and the Midland Main Line so it makes sense to go for those bigger wins first. Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury might get wired though, due to there now being 3tph and train lengthening likely with the West Midlands Trains class 196s, which would make bi-modes a good choice for the Cambrian. As for the Civity fleet, I think the way to go is battery hybrid like the class 230s proposed for Wrexham-Bidston. Regen braking and (presumably) being able to run the diesel engine at its optimum (for fuel economy) revs would presumably save a fair bit of fuel (and maybe get an acceleration boost from the battery too). If they were clever about it they could even build-in passive provision for convertion to bi-mode, either by having an empty pantograph well and space for a transformer or planning for the addition of a pantograph car at a later date. Sure, they could run them as DMUs for 10 years and then chuck all the mechanical transmission in the bin to convert to hybrid/bi-mode but why not make them diesel-electric from the outset to make conversions much easier?

Caaardiff said:

True, we are going from 51 long distance 158's & 175's, but i'm guessing that some of these new trains will need to replace 150's on other routes, such as Chester - Liverpool, Chester - Crewe, Shrewsbury - Crewe, Pembroke Dock & Fishguard Harbour branches.

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No Civities proposed for Shrewsbury-Crewe or Pembroke/Fishguard as far as I'm aware but you are right that some of the extras would replace 150s/153s in north Wales; I think they're supposed to be going on the Conwy Valley line for example.

Caaardiff said:

Personally I'm quite excited with the plans that are being put in place and I hope it pays off. The ultimate goal I would hope is to make travelling by train not just a more comfortable for those that currently use the network as they have no choice, but also attract more travellers that may opt to avoid train travel due to the current mess the network is in. Hopefully better quality service may eventually warrant a minimum 4 car service South/North constantly.

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Well, it is pretty much confirmed that Swansea-Manchester is planned to be 5-car, but maybe that isn't what you meant by 'south/north'. As for attracting new passengers, TfW haven't chosen the seats yet; they may fit ironing boards. While the seats are unconfirmed, TfW have confirmed that they propose some quality reductions:

• only one toilet on a 2-car unit (2 toilets on 3-car) compared to a toilet in every coach on 158s and 175s (increased risk of no toilets available due to being locked out of use)
• smaller seat pitch (and therefore legroom, expect perhaps if they fit ironing boards) compared to a 175 (although better than a 158)
• fewer fixed tables
• no internal doors between saloon and vestibule
  
• increased capacity for standing passengers
  
• and maybe one or two other things that temporarilly escape me...

all fairly minor by themselves (expect perhaps the toilet issue) you could say but added together I consider them to create a significant reduction in quality.

Cardiff123 said:

Another important factor on the new CAF long distance DMUs will be luggage storage space.
Currently you can't fit anything bigger than a backpack in the overhead compartment of a 175 and I've been on a Manchester - Cardiff 175 trip in the summer where there was so much luggage on board, but so little space for it, that it was all piled up in the disabled area.
There obviously needs to be much better luggage storage areas and bigger overhead racks on the new CAF DMUs to ensure luggage isn't taking up seating and standing space.

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How do the overhead racks on Northern's 195s/331s compare to the overhead racks on a 175? At the end of Jan I was informed by TfW that the plan was for their new 196-like trains to have 1 large luggage rack per car, with a proposed width of 1227mm. The class 175 (2-car) I tried to measure had two luggage racks in each car, each about 65cm wide so in total basically exactly the same 'large luggage' capacity as the proposed new train unless the Civity overhead racks are big enough for 'large luggage'.

Jez said:

thanks for the info. Yes all makes sense. Fingers crossed from timetable change no more pacers om West wales and on Swanline. Perhaps 170s will work the Swanline diagram that doesn't interwork with heart of Wales line.

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Yeah i hope no more pacers here in west wales won't be seen after December but there might be 1 on Pembroke dock to Swansea if there short on a 150. On Wednesday i saw 153353 with ex GWR in TFW liverly 153353 doing the 09.09 from Pembroke dock to swansea

The vital thing with the overhead luggage racks is that they must be able to take the carry-on cases of the size determined by the likes of Ryan Air & Easyjet. (The new Hitachi Class 800 trains do meet this requirement).

Sion John said:

Yeah i hope no more pacers here in west wales won't be seen after December but there might be 1 on Pembroke dock to Swansea if there short on a 150. On Wednesday i saw 153353 with ex GWR in TFW liverly 153353 doing the 09.09 from Pembroke dock to swansea

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What have 153s got to do with Pacers...?

Rhydgaled said:

Are they?

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Yes, or I wouldn't have said it.
Track down any industry magazine from Summer 2018 with an article on the franchise launch and it'll be in there.
That's also why there are 5 year break clauses in the franchise contract. If Welsh Govt think that Keolis Amey are failing to deliver on their contract, the franchise can be terminated early.

anamyd said:

What have 153s got to do with Pacers...?

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Just saying because i live in Llanelli

anamyd said:

What have 153s got to do with Pacers...?

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Sion John said:

Just saying because i live in Llanelli

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Why must we look for a link in Sion John's post between Pacers and 153's? To me I read 2 separate points there - 1) he will be glad if pacers are no longer working West of Swansea after mid -December or Jan. 1st - 2) He shows interest in having observed an ex-GW but TFW- branded 153 West of Swansea. The initial plan was to keep these close to Canton but Sion's observation shows that they are now passed that stage and can be seen wherever 153's work - I personally find that worthy of comment even if others do not.
Keep up the good work Sion John, just keep posting anything you find interesting and tell us what you think about what is going on.

tomos dafis said:

Why must we look for a link in Sion John's post between Pacers and 153's? To me I read 2 separate points there - 1) he will be glad if pacers are no longer working West of Swansea after mid -December or Jan. 1st - 2) He shows interest in having observed an ex-GW but TFW- branded 153 West of Swansea. The initial plan was to keep these close to Canton but Sion's observation shows that they are now passed that stage and can be seen wherever 153's work - I personally find that worthy of comment even if others do not.
Keep up the good work Sion John, just keep posting anything you find interesting and tell us what you think about what is going on.

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Ok thank you i will. Lol TFW are in a mess you never know what TfW has to put on express routes if there short on 175s poor 150s but at least there updating the 150s. Also because 153325 is updated it can go west of Swansea and on to Pembroke dock and heart of wales

tomos dafis said:

Why must we look for a link in Sion John's post between Pacers and 153's? To me I read 2 separate points there - 1) he will be glad if pacers are no longer working West of Swansea after mid -December or Jan. 1st - 2) He shows interest in having observed an ex-GW but TFW- branded 153 West of Swansea. The initial plan was to keep these close to Canton but Sion's observation shows that they are now passed that stage and can be seen wherever 153's work - I personally find that worthy of comment even if others do not.
Keep up the good work Sion John, just keep posting anything you find interesting and tell us what you think about what is going on.

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I'm totally fine with Sion so I'm sorry to hear that my post was misinterpreted