Poll: Potential General Election: who are you voting for?

coradiafan2000 · 23 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
I refer you back to the earlier posting where it was said that anyone under the age of 18 is deemed to be a child in the eyes of the law.

Not all students leave school at the age of 16, as will be attested to by the number of sixth-form colleges that so exist.

But some students do. Some will go straight into employment, others may wait before going back into education (both of which are affected by the government's policies, which under the current system under 18s can't influence)

As for the part about being a child in the eyes of the law, dare I say that part of the law needs looking at? Once you're 15, people rarely refer to you as a child, you're seen more as a "young adult". It's a bit derogatory to suggest that people between 15 and 18 are mere "children" and shouldn't be taken seriously.

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coradiafan2000 · 23 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
They are colleges in my book. A secondary school environment is vastly different to a college environment.

I'd agree. My school's six form shut down before I got the chance to be in it. You're also right about it being vastly different from a school environment. I went to college and found it was more to prepare you for university more than anything else. Which as someone with no intention of going to uni (at least not yet), intimidated me.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
As for the part about being a child in the eyes of the law, dare I say that part of the law needs looking at?

Need I have to remind you that whilst the law appertaining to such matters remains upon the Statute Book, it remains the law. Whether you feel "the law needs looking at", that particular aspiration remains just an aspiration and needs to be understood as such.

coradiafan2000 · 23 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Need I have to remind you that whilst the law appertaining to such matters remains upon the Statute Book, it remains the law. Whether you feel "the law needs looking at", that particular aspiration remains just an aspiration and needs to be understood as such.

That's as may be, but my point is that I don't think you're a child anymore at 16, you're affected by the same issues as everyone else, and so should have a voice.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
I'd agree. My school's six form shut down before I got the chance to be in it. You're also right about it being vastly different from a school environment. I went to college and found it was more to prepare you for university more than anything else. Which as someone with no intention of going to uni (at least not yet), intimidated me.

If your view that the ability of 16 year old students to fully comprehend the voting system and to therefore be able to cast their vote accordingly, then to use your logic, such 16 year old students should not be at all concerned about different school and college environments, with their stated adult ability to react to such situations.

You cannot have it both ways.

Darandio · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
That's as may be, but my point is that I don't think you're a child anymore at 16, you're affected by the same issues as everyone else, and so should have a voice.

I completely agree. But the older generation doesn't want you to have that voice in case it has an affect on them.

coradiafan2000 · 23 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
If your view that the ability of 16 year old students to fully comprehend the voting system and to therefore be able to cast their vote accordingly, then to use your logic, such 16 year old students should not be at all concerned about different school and college environments, with their stated adult ability to react to such situations.

You cannot have it both ways.

Just because I'm concerned about my future doesn't mean I can't "comprehend the voting system".

Darandio said:
I completely agree. But the older generation doesn't want you to have that voice in case it has an affect on them.

That's what I wanted to say, but was too afraid to.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
That's as may be, but my point is that I don't think you're a child anymore at 16, you're affected by the same issues as everyone else, and so should have a voice.

I will reiterate what I said earlier. In law at the present time, you are seen as being a child under the age of 18. What do you feel would be the outcome in a Court of Law if you were to use your own view of not being a child in the eyes of the law under the age of 18. How do you feel that a barrister or a judge would view the point you attempt to make.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Nov 2019

Darandio said:
I completely agree. But the older generation doesn't want you to have that voice in case it has an affect on them.

It is nothing whatsoever to concern the feelings of "the older generation", it is the law of the land.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
Just because I'm concerned about my future doesn't mean I can't "comprehend the voting system".

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you not comprehend the comparisons that I made in my earlier posting which clearly made the point that if 16 year old students had an adult frame of mind that an ability to vote would suggest, they too should have the same adult frame of mind to fully comprehend the differing scholastic requirements of secondary school and sixth form colleges.

coradiafan2000 · 23 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
I will reiterate what I said earlier. In law at the present time, you are seen as being a child under the age of 18. What do you feel would be the outcome in a Court of Law if you were to use your own view of not being a child in the eyes of the law under the age of 18. How do you feel that a barrister or a judge would view the point you attempt to make.

The court of law is a far different environment from a polling station. They are wildly different contexts. You're unfortunately probably right a judge wouldn't make much of my opinion, as apparently it's too radical and wouldn't matter anyway because of my young age.

Just because the law treats people under 18 differently, it shouldn't necessarily have any bearing on their ability to vote. For goodness sake we can get married at 17, one of the most monumental moments in our lives, yet are unable to walk a few minutes down the road to put an X into a box. A very important X mind you. I really don't think it's as big a deal as you make it out to be.

coradiafan2000 · 23 Nov 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you not comprehend the comparisons that I made in my earlier posting which clearly made the point that if 16 year old students had an adult frame of mind that an ability to vote would suggest, they too should have the same adult frame of mind to fully comprehend the differing scholastic requirements of secondary school and sixth form colleges.

You aren't seriously suggesting that 16 year old can't comprehend the differences between secondary school and college? Just because it may be a big change for some people to deal with, we still have the mental capacity to understand how something as simple as voting works, as well as how the government works and what political parties stand for. Feeling uneasy about change and the future is part of being human, which obviously we all are, regardless of age.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
You aren't seriously suggesting that 16 year old can't comprehend the differences between secondary school and college? Just because it may be a big change for some people to deal with, we still have the mental capacity to understand how something as simple as voting works, as well as how the government works and what political parties stand for. Feeling uneasy about change and the future is part of being human, which obviously we all are, regardless of age.

I put it to you that it was you, not I, who expressed worries about secondary school and colleges in an earlier posting, so it was to that I made response to.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
They are colleges in my book. A secondary school environment is vastly different to a college environment.

Whilst being aware of your connections with educational environments for many years on this website, you will note that I did actually use the term "colleges" in the posting that you made reference to. Is it not the case that in what is seen as the final year of secondary education, students receive advice from their teaching staff that covers the very point you make above?

On a personal view of matters, when I attended the educational edifice that is St Bede's College in Manchester from 1956 onwards, in which I was the only day-boy in the Classics stream, it was taken as read that from the Upper Third to the Upper Sixth forms, they were viewed as being preliminary to the University education that was seen as a natural follow-on from the educational grounding we had received.

cb a1 · 23 Nov 2019

On the definition of a child, I would like to make the observation that the UK comprises 4 different countries with different legal systems. According to the NSPCC, in E, W & NI it's unambiguous that you're a child until 18. Scotland is generally 18, but sometimes 16.

My personal circumstances are rather complicated (and not something I want to discuss on a public forum) but my now 16-year-old son recently moved in with me and I'm pleased at how much control he legally has over the very major decisions that affect his life [such as where he lives, whether he is in education, etc.]

AlterEgo · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
As I said in a previous post, I think 16 is a pivotal moment in one's life. You're leaving school and for the first time in your life you have responsibilities, and you have to decide where to take your life.

If your username implies that you were born in the year 2000, come back in 2030 and let me know if you still think 16 is a really important and pivotal age.

The reality is, it's different for everyone, and the line is drawn arbitrarily. 18, being the age of adulthood, seems reasonable enough for me.

ManOnATrain · 23 Nov 2019

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion the fact that some train drivers earn over £80k and ASLEF is backed by the Labour party (or vice versa, I don't know) and that train drivers may be paying a subscription to Labour through their ASLEF deductions. So train drivers are supporting a party that wants to take more money off them. Surely that shouldn't be going down well?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50517136

"I am nowhere near in the top 5%, let me tell you, I'm not even in the top 50%," he said.

Presenter Fiona Bruce said Labour, "would raise income tax on those earning over £80,000. You're saying that would affect you because you earn over that sum?" The man confirmed he did.

I wonder if that guy in the QT audience was a train driver!

yorkie · 23 Nov 2019

I don't know what job he does, but he is incorrect!

From the same article:

...it's likely that you need to be earning about £81,000 to be in the top 5% of income taxpayers today.

But the figures from HMRC exclude people earning too little to pay income tax, which means that the audience member would have been well into the top 5% of all earners.

He's certainly not outside the top 50% - anything over about £25,000 would put him in the top half.

I'd also have to question whether he deserves his high salary; what he was saying was rather bonkers to be honest.

coradiafan2000 · 23 Nov 2019

I'll make one final post on the subject on the voting age as I seem to be unable to get my point across, and I don't wish to engage in any arguments.

I believe lowering the voting age is a good idea because it would give the younger generation a voice they've been sorely lacking. I'm sure that being able to vote would be greatly appreciated by many, they're going to be greatly affected by the outcomes of any elections or referendums, so it seems only fair (to me anyway).

I'll put my hands in the air and say I may not be as well informed as other people on this thread. I am after all only 19 and have nowhere near as much life experience as many others. I'm not even THAT interested in politics, I used to be, but not anymore. In recent years it's been far too divisive, and it seems to bring out the worst in people. I believe it shouldn't be about "winning", but about collaborating to ensure all voices are heard, and that the people come first.

Even if you don't agree with my opinions I sincerely thank you for taking the time to read them. It genuinely means a lot

DynamicSpirit · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
But some students do. Some will go straight into employment, others may wait before going back into education (both of which are affected by the government's policies, which under the current system under 18s can't influence)

As for the part about being a child in the eyes of the law, dare I say that part of the law needs looking at? Once you're 15, people rarely refer to you as a child, you're seen more as a "young adult". It's a bit derogatory to suggest that people between 15 and 18 are mere "children" and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Does that mean you would be happy for people aged 16 and 17 to be treated as adults when it comes to other things? To take a couple of examples, having to pay NHS charges as adults, being given adult sentencing for crimes and sent to adult prisons?

Pyreneenguy · 23 Nov 2019

Darandio said:
I completely agree. But the older generation doesn't want you to have that voice in case it has an affect on them.

Allowing 16 year olds to vote would go someway in resolving the (sad) fact that so many older people ( 70% after age 70) vote Conservative.

The result of the Brexit referendum was largely decided by people of current voting age who were easily influenced and manipulated and had no idea about the larger implications of leaving the E.U. For many of them, it simply boiled down to Johnny Foreigner taking our jobs and housing. The so called will of the people ( huge sigh).

DynamicSpirit · 23 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
I'll make one final post on the subject on the voting age as I seem to be unable to get my point across, and I don't wish to engage in any arguments.

For what it's worth, I think you are getting your point across. The problem is... as in any political debate... other people can see counter-arguments to, or simply don't agree with, your point. Teasing out those issues and counter-arguments is one way that we all get better informed.

Fair enough if you don't want to engage in arguments.... But I wouldn't describe this as an argument - more like a very interesting debate (and one that is much more civil than some I've seen on railforums

).

And by the way, it may not seem like it from my last couple of posts, but I'm completely undecided about whether votes at 16 is a good or bad thing. I think there are good arguments on both sides, and I'm asking questions in order to clarify what people arguing for a change think the implications of that change would be.

Pyreneenguy · 23 Nov 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
Does that mean you would be happy for people aged 16 and 17 to be treated as adults when it comes to other things? To take a couple of examples, having to pay NHS charges as adults, being given adult sentencing for crimes and sent to adult prisons?

It is already bad enough for those that (and often through no fault of their own) have no place in the education system and have to work at 16 for a reduced minimum wage. Is the quantity of work expected similarly reduced or is is it just another Conservative gift ?

Cowley · 23 Nov 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
For what it's worth, I think you are getting your point across. The problem is... as in any political debate... other people can see counter-arguments to, or simply don't agree with, your point. Teasing out those issues and counter-arguments is one way that we all get better informed.

Fair enough if you don't want to engage in arguments.... But I wouldn't describe this as an argument - more like a very interesting debate (and one that is much more civil than some I've seen on railforums ).

And by the way, it may not seem like it from my last couple of posts, but I'm completely undecided about whether votes at 16 is a good or bad thing. I think there are good arguments on both sides, and I'm asking questions in order to clarify what people arguing for a change think the implications of that change would be.

Well said that man.

ainsworth74 · 23 Nov 2019

Hmm, if under eighteens are incapable of understanding complex matters such that they could not be trusted to vote perhaps the age of criminal responsibility should be raised from ten to eighteen to also match?

Robin Edwards · 23 Nov 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
I'm completely undecided about whether votes at 16 is a good or bad thing. I think there are good arguments on both sides, and I'm asking questions in order to clarify what people arguing for a change think the implications of that change would be.

Well said that man.
I fully understand older Tory voters wanting to downplay the maturity of the under 18s since it underpins the demographic that would likely undermine their view of the world. I generalise of course as others have been doing.

My youngest was trusted to take out a student loan before she was eighteen and also to drive on our motorways. She could marry and heaven forbid, bring children into the world should she have decided for herself to do so; thus I believe she can be trusted to chose her future via the ballot box.
On the other hand, the greatest prejudice and divisive bigotry I see is by far from the older generations, mine included. I see plenty who will vote who haven't got a clue which way is up let alone who is telling them the greatest porkies!

Maybe to vote we should all prove our balance of mind via an online cognitive assessment?

I jest of course but I think I know which age group would miss out.

ManOnATrain · 23 Nov 2019

If I was a taxpaying 16 year old, I'd want a vote. I would be very annoyed at paying into a system I have no say in. In Scotland of course, I would get a say. Not atll 16 and 17 year olds given a vote will actually use it. I suppose by extension, we could say that child actors (as taxpayers) should also be allowed to vote...?
I voted from the age of 18, as a taxpayer, but I didn't really become interested in polictics and start watching Question Time until I was 23. Watching it now, many years later, just really riles me up so I avoid politics, with the odd exception here and there. It's hard to avoid at the moment because it's EVERYWHERE. Even on a forum about trains.

DynamicSpirit · 23 Nov 2019

ManOnATrain said:
Watching it now, many years later, just really riles me up so I avoid politics, with the odd exception here and there. It's hard to avoid at the moment because it's EVERYWHERE. Even on a forum about trains.

Well if you will come along and read a thread that is clearly titled, 'Poll: Potential General Election: who are you voting for?' ...

JamesT · 23 Nov 2019

Pyreneenguy said:
It is already bad enough for those that (and often through no fault of their own) have no place in the education system and have to work at 16 for a reduced minimum wage. Is the quantity of work expected similarly reduced or is is it just another Conservative gift ?

My understanding is there are several reasons behind the lower rate for younger workers. The first is that specifically for the under 18s, work shouldn’t be seen as overly attractive compared to remaining in education.
The other main reason is to make younger workers more attractive to employ. If you have the choice between an experienced worker and a younger one (all other things being equal), you’d choose the older one. But if you can get the younger one cheaper then you’re more likely to employ them.
There are studies showing that unemployment early in your career has a scarring effect on you. Countries with a flat minimum wage tend to have higher youth unemployment whereas the UK has generally done fairly well by that measure.

coradiafan2000 · 23 Nov 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
For what it's worth, I think you are getting your point across. The problem is... as in any political debate... other people can see counter-arguments to, or simply don't agree with, your point. Teasing out those issues and counter-arguments is one way that we all get better informed.

Fair enough if you don't want to engage in arguments.... But I wouldn't describe this as an argument - more like a very interesting debate (and one that is much more civil than some I've seen on railforums ).

And by the way, it may not seem like it from my last couple of posts, but I'm completely undecided about whether votes at 16 is a good or bad thing. I think there are good arguments on both sides, and I'm asking questions in order to clarify what people arguing for a change think the implications of that change would be.

I've always been bad at debating, and find myself bad at expressing my views on other things outside of politics.

This is the first time I think I've ever discussed my own political beliefs outside of close friends and family

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