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RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains
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Goldfish62
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Thanks.
Bletchleyite
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Ah, cheers. Similar sounding names! 
185143
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IIRC someone upthread (possibly Bletchleyite?) Mentioned the possibility of the dispute being the kick up the rear some guards need. My experience today is that it's done the exact opposite.
I use the first one off Crewe down to Euston occasionally and have always had my ticket checked, often before Stafford. Not today. The conductors both before and after Rugby were pretending they didn't exist. No visible presence at all, and just three announcements on the whole journey. 2 of which were warning of the short platforms. There were no auto announcements either.
The return journey was even worse. Late departure off Euston due to waiting for half of the train to arrive, late of course. Litter everywhere and an overflowing bog. No word from the guard to even acknowledge the 10 minute late start, or even to say it was the Crewe service. Nothing. The first we heard from a member of staff was when someone in the rear of the train pulled 2 egress handles at Rugeley Trent Valley. No manual announcement was made to inform us of the short platform, and I don't know if the auto announcement mentions it in the rear. Either way, the conductor decides to apologise for the extended stop, and I quote, "Due to a complete moron who cannot listen to simple instructions and has pulled two emergency door releases".
Words fail me. It's like they WANT DOO...
I use the first one off Crewe down to Euston occasionally and have always had my ticket checked, often before Stafford. Not today. The conductors both before and after Rugby were pretending they didn't exist. No visible presence at all, and just three announcements on the whole journey. 2 of which were warning of the short platforms. There were no auto announcements either.
The return journey was even worse. Late departure off Euston due to waiting for half of the train to arrive, late of course. Litter everywhere and an overflowing bog. No word from the guard to even acknowledge the 10 minute late start, or even to say it was the Crewe service. Nothing. The first we heard from a member of staff was when someone in the rear of the train pulled 2 egress handles at Rugeley Trent Valley. No manual announcement was made to inform us of the short platform, and I don't know if the auto announcement mentions it in the rear. Either way, the conductor decides to apologise for the extended stop, and I quote, "Due to a complete moron who cannot listen to simple instructions and has pulled two emergency door releases".
Words fail me. It's like they WANT DOO...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Quite. I don't want DOO myself, but the majority of guards on the south WCML appear to be selling the idea by just hiding in the cab and doing nothing but the doors. Only a small but visible minority are actually found in the saloon.
If guards are to be retained, we really have to move to a situation where they are ALWAYS in the saloon unless they feel their personal safety is threatened, and in all such cases a BTP call really should be logged. Perhaps guard door controls should only be provided in the saloon and not the cab as per (I think) 195s?
No thanks. Even in an office you're entitled to a comfort break. I can work up to 7 hours on a train with no real break (IE if I'm lucky I might get 15 minutes of a split PNB in that time with the rest before or after it). If I choose to disappear for 10 minutes for a sit down and a drink then that's my business. The trains I work have narrow aisles and the vestibule area is unheated in winter and has no ventilation in summer.
As usual the uninformed start arm waving about 'should be in the saloon on public display every minute of every day' without considering practical reality.
If we use the loo should we leave the door open for critical appraisal as well?
If I'm working a train from Liverpool to Nottingham I spend most of my time wandering about checking tickets, weeding reservations or tidying up. If I finish my ticket check 10 minutes before Sheffield having left Stockport then I see no reason why on a 6 hour round trip on a moving train I shouldn't stop for a quick cup of tea. Standing on moving trains all day every day is also bad for your joints.
Finally it all comes back to the age old thing of why aren't the managers bothering to manage their staff?
xc170
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Quite. I posted something much the same in the Northern strike thread last year.
I'd never want to see anyone face redundancy but honestly, the role isn't as critical as it once was with the advances in technology, if the guard grade is going to be retained long term, it needs to be refocused towards providing customer service and revenue protection.
Quite apart from my previous bit of a rant (sorry, touches a nerve) some impartial information for anyone planning on travelling - drivers in various locations are again refusing to cross picket lines so the timetable in some areas already appears to be falling to bits.
Bungle158
Member
Both the above fall way behind safety which is and should remain the paramount concern.
What’s the relevance of that statement? Steward(esses) on planes are really there for safety reasons. But as they are there they do all sorts of useful stuff, which they can easily break away from if something safety related happens.
BucksBones
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Yep, it's even worse than last Sat. There are some buses being laid on; however that makes it worse IMO because it is a tacit admission by LNR that they knew in advance that the emergency timetable wasn't going to happen; buses need to be pre-arranged.
If anyone from WMR management is reading this, STOP LYING TO YOUR CUSTOMERS!!
They have been playing old announcements all week saying that the timetable FOR 16 November (not even 'Saturdays from 16 Nov' ) is now available to view online, which is being met with audible derision from passengers.
Regarding guards' visible presence I wouldn't blame them wanting to hide; such is the level of service being provided at the moment they'd probably just get a load of abuse if they tried to do revenue checks.
185
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Quite an accurate assessment. Staff abuse during times of disruption does increase at any firm. With their new timetable which doesn't quite seem to work, if it prevents confrontation or assault, keeping trains running is the priority with being visible a close second.
185143
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You are correct regarding 195s. Northern 319s are also the same, I suspect 331s are too.
NoMorePacers
Established Member
They ripped the door controls out of the cabs on the Northern 319s (apparently to make them more visible to customers).
Makes complete sense considering they wanted DOO.
Makes complete sense considering they wanted DOO.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
I use Virgin Trains journey check, then go to West Midlands Trains (under other train operators) as a quick way to find out what's going on in the absence of anything else.
Earlier today, it said "delays caused by non-striking staff refusing to cross picket lines at Duddeston. What's the significance of this location?
Not many Euston - Northampton services in the 'basic timetable' have run so far today. LNR are running buses to Milton Keynes - as far as I can make out there are not more LNR services at Milton Keynes than at Northampton so the only reason for this is to put passengers on other TOCs (Southern and VWC) to complete their journey. Wonder how happy the other TOCs are about that...
Earlier today, it said "delays caused by non-striking staff refusing to cross picket lines at Duddeston. What's the significance of this location?
Not many Euston - Northampton services in the 'basic timetable' have run so far today. LNR are running buses to Milton Keynes - as far as I can make out there are not more LNR services at Milton Keynes than at Northampton so the only reason for this is to put passengers on other TOCs (Southern and VWC) to complete their journey. Wonder how happy the other TOCs are about that...
centraltrains
Member
The Snow Hill lines seem to have been very reliable both this weekend and last, only at 1/3 of usual service but all trains 5 coaches. (Think they're running just 8 diagrams for half-hourly/hourly service which seems quite impressive).
Cross City at 1/2 usual service, again seems to have performed ok both weekends.
The LNR line from Birmingham to Northampton is at 2/3 the usual service and seems to have fallen apart - maybe they're just aiming too high there? (Not sure on how services south of Northampton usually work)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I wouldn't deny you your break, but what you do from reading your posts on here is very different from what the considerable number of bone-idle LNR guards are doing, which is never straying into the passenger accommodation at any time. A guard in that position is, other than in an emergency, totally worthless. Unless and until required for operational and safety duties, they need to be doing revenue and passenger assistance, particularly when there are serious delays.
I know we used to have non-revenue guards (and still do on the likes of SWR suburbans) but really I see no point in that grade - all should have revenue/passenger assistance roles to get the best value (financially and in terms of good publicity and passenger feeling) out of the second member of staff, which is the best way to justify retention.
Quite a lot of people I talk to seem to think LNR is already DOO with the occasional ticket inspector getting on once a month or so. That speaks volumes.
I do kind of understand their reticence to come out into the passenger accommodation on the "vomit comets" (accompanying them for their safety so they can would be an ideal job for contract security guards rather than barking at people or doing a bad job of checking tickets in Manchester) - but you almost never see them on commuter or daytime services either. Only the odd few do, and you recognise them as the ones that do.
Of course.
If the guard has made themselves scarce because they fear for their safety, then there will be other customers on the train who are also in danger. Therefore the 'customers in danger' protocol must be followed - BTP being called, train being brought to a halt at an appropriate station, statements from the guard, etc.
And if the guard has not made their way through the train on a sufficient frequent basis to ensure that there is nothing untoward going on, then presumably they are failing in their duty and should be disciplined.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
You have clearly never done the job. It is an unfortunate fact in this day and age that some people have an automatic reaction of aggression towards symbols of authority including uniformed members of staff. Add in a reluctance of some of that subset of the population to actually pay for a valid ticket and the risk of confrontation is even more heightened. In practice guards have to take a balanced view and accept that a certain amount of "verbals" is unavoidable but tolerable with the thick skin that is a necessary attribute for the role. But there will always be situations where in practice it is not worth the aggro to be pro-active in revenue protection: better to ensure safe operation of the train and passengers reaching their destinations than have the train terminated part way through the journey due to the guard being incapacitated by "passenger interaction".
As for summoning the BTP unless violence, or the threat of it, is in evidence they are normally not interested. And if the violence has been "provoked" by an attempt to enforce ticket validity then TOC management will be wanting to know why the guard got their priorities wrong. So guards are caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. The real world is not the same as that sometimes portrayed on here.
Of course those who are anti-guard will say this merely supports the removal of guards. But who then will deal with PRMs? Or keep Control in the loop during the disruption that is becoming so increasingly common on our network? If guards have become so de-motivated that they appear to be invisible to most passengers that says more about their managers, or all too often the managers' managers. And ultimately the DfT for being so utterly disinterested in the overall passenger experience. But that's what you get when you insist on doing everything as cheaply as possible.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Certainly the present WMT senior management are grossly incompetent (I think that is a fair description given how they have managed to run what was a reasonably decent operation firmly into the ground in such a short time) and it's no surprise staff are demoralised now and doing the bare minimum required to comply with their contract. However, this was an issue in LM and Silverlink days - it does seem it's a deeply ingrained cultural thing for Northampton and Bletchley based guards (except a small number of them) not to leave the cab unless there is no other option. Kind of a bit like it's ingrained in London bus driver culture just to grunt at passengers and ignore anything to do with revenue, going back to the days when drivers had nothing to do with passengers, whereas in the provinces they are very interested in revenue.
So you have people on the train who will react with aggression to any symbol of authority, and these will be the same sort of people making life unpleasant for every other paying customer on that train, with an undercurrent of potential violence.
And the solution is for the guard to hide away so they don't 'provoke' these people.
Not making a good case for the role of the guard in ensuring the train company's customers have a safe journey.
Sprinter107
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Absolutely spot on.
185
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Ditto, agree.
NoMorePacers
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When I first started thinking about DOO, then I was initially tilted against it.
But the more I read through it, the more I become opposed to it. I will categorically support any effort to stop DOO being roled out (for the record, and as far as I'm concerned, DOO means the train having a driver and a driver only. Y'know, like the Driver Only in Driver Only Operation states?).
I could go on but I want to keep this thread open.
But the more I read through it, the more I become opposed to it. I will categorically support any effort to stop DOO being roled out (for the record, and as far as I'm concerned, DOO means the train having a driver and a driver only. Y'know, like the Driver Only in Driver Only Operation states?).
I could go on but I want to keep this thread open.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There is no plan for DOO with no second member of staff on WMT at all. The intention was to have an OBS type member of staff whose primary purpose was dealing with passengers.
NoMorePacers
Established Member
Ah. I would class that under DCO operation then myself.
With this, then I guess it depends on what the staff want really.
bussnapperwm
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And we all know how that works out. They'll then say "oh, trains can run if needs be without a OBS/TE as the driver will be able to control the doors" and from there it's a slippery slope.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
It is not the role of the guard to provide enforcement of law and order, that responsibility belongs to the BTP (and other forces as appropriate). If you really think that guards should in fact take on that role then presumably you would support them receiving both the training and pay commensurate with that role. Not to mention the guaranteed early retirement.
The issue you are really talking about is a wider societal problem of increasing low-level anti-social behaviour and decreasing numbers of front-line police officers. Those two may well be connected. The chances of finding a random BTP patrol on a train nowadays is absolutely tiny despite there being obvious trains (and stations) to check. DOO or not makes no difference to that so it is somewhat disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise. Guards are there to ensure safe operation of the train, not to act as security staff. Yes showing their faces, perhaps without checking tickets, can help to promote a better atmosphere, but it also needs managers who support their staff, thereby motivating them, rather than undermining them. People Management 101.
The apparent hardening of the RMT stance alluded to by another poster very likely arises from the realisation that on Southern the 377s were operated as Driver Open, Guard Close from new which eventually led to the attempted imposition of full DOO. It is hardly surprising that a union would seek to protect its members' interests by resisting what amounts to a Trojan Horse.
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