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GroupSave as a ticket type: how many e-tickets should be issued for a group?

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yorkie

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As some people will know, there are two types of GroupSave, but this thread is purely about the type of GroupSave that is a ticket type in its own right, as used by Scotrail and EMR.

Example fares:
Unlike other multi-passenger fares, these state the number of passengers as '1' when in practice, the above examples are 3, 4, and 5.

My questions are, firstly, is this a data error, or is there a good reason for this?

And secondly, how many e-tickets should be issued? Should it be one for the whole ticket covering the group, or one per person? If it should be one per person, how can a ticket issuer actually know this?

If anyone has any answers or thoughts, I'd be interested to hear them :)

Thanks.
 
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alistairlees

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This looks exactly the same poor data set up as TfW's Small Group Day product, which has been discussed elsewhere on here I believe:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?...ert=on&flow=1&multi=2&fare=6&rte=1000&tkt=SGD

Simply put, TIS suppliers (and therefore retailers) should follow the data. If the data says 1 adult, then 1 adult it is...

Are these tickets enable to be fulfilled to eTicket? I haven't checked RCS.
 
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Since my first post I've also discovered this:
https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/tickets-discounts/get-a-discount/group-tickets
They’re not available to buy online
Click to expand...
So, I suppose the answer for now is that ticket offices that can issue e-tickets will issue these as one e-ticket for the entire group (if they are enabled for e-tickets), and it's a moot point for online retailers as they currently cannot be sold online.

I am not sure if it's actually lawful for these fares to be only available from ticket offices and ticket vending machines.
 
Haywain

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Scotrail state that the tickets are only intended for sale from staffed sales points due to the way the tickets are set up. They are clearly aware of how they are issued and have done nothing to effect any change so it must be assumed that their intentions are being met. It seems reasonable to assume that EMT have taken the same view, although this could, conceivably, change under EMR.
 
reb0118

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These tickets are set for one adult so that one ticket is produced - and one only. Previously each member of the group was issued an individual ticket with the inevitable hassle when the group split up after a few sherbets. Their individual tickets worked the barriers and there was a great reluctance from the affected passengers to purchase new ones, or in fact merely pay an excess.
 
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reb0118 said:
These tickets are set for one adult so that one ticket is produced - and one only. Previously each member of the group was issued an individual ticket with the inevitable hassle when the group split up after a few sherbets. Their individual tickets worked the barriers and there was a great reluctance from the affected passengers to purchase new ones, or in fact merely pay an excess.
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Interesting. This isn't a justifiable reason for an exemption to competition law, however.

Not allowing online retailers to sell these tickets is a clear example of an abuse of a dominant position.
 
Haywain

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yorkie said:
Interesting. This isn't a justifiable reason for an exemption to competition law, however.

Not allowing online retailers to sell these tickets is a clear example of an abuse of a dominant position.
Click to expand...
Given the bizarre format of the tickets, I know of one online retailer that has no desire to sell them. I would expect that there are others.
 
Haywain

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Bletchleyite said:
Classic railway, and one key reason people feel they're being ripped off.

ALL sales channels should sell ALL tickets.
Click to expand...
As a ticket that requires the customer to state one person is travelling to obtain a ticket for 3-5 people it would rarely be found anyway, but the fault in this case must lie with the TOC that designed the ticket.
 
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Haywain said:
As a ticket that requires the customer to state one person is travelling to obtain a ticket for 3-5 people it would rarely be found anyway, but the fault in this case must lie with the TOC that designed the ticket.
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Indeed.
Haywain said:
Given the bizarre format of the tickets, I know of one online retailer that has no desire to sell them. I would expect that there are others.
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I think any decent retailer would want to sell the tickets if the data was correct, but it's pretty much impossible in their current format, as the data appears to be deliberately wrong in order to prevent online retailers from selling these fares.
 
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Haywain said:
As a ticket that requires the customer to state one person is travelling to obtain a ticket for 3-5 people it would rarely be found anyway, but the fault in this case must lie with the TOC that designed the ticket.
Click to expand...

Agreed - all I'm saying is that the situation isn't acceptable. I think there should be a simple rule - all tickets on sale from all retailers, no exceptions[1], and no "breaking the rules" in this manner, a ticket stating one adult is valid for one adult, not three.

[1] On both sides - all TOCs to make all tickets, even short term offers, available to all retailers, and all retailers mandated to sell all tickets without favouring a specific subset or they lose accreditation. So no Megatrain or similar - just one fare set everyone uses with strict compliance to the rules.
 
Haywain

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yorkie said:
I think any decent retailer would want to sell the tickets if the data was correct, but it's pretty much impossible in their current format, as the data appears to be deliberately wrong in order to prevent online retailers from selling these fares.
Click to expand...
Exactly my point. It would be much better to have a ticket (or, better still, a proper GroupSave discount) that could be sold by all retail channels.
 
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Bletchleyite said:
Agreed - all I'm saying is that the situation isn't acceptable. I think there should be a simple rule - all tickets on sale from all retailers, no exceptions[1], and no "breaking the rules" in this manner, a ticket stating one adult is valid for one adult, not three.
Click to expand...
I agree that RDG should enforce such a rule; I would say that this is already the law, as to do anything contrary to this is an abuse of a dominant position and unlawful under competition law.
Bletchleyite said:
[1] On both sides - all TOCs to make all tickets, even short term offers, available to all retailers, and all retailers mandated to sell all tickets without favouring a specific subset or they lose accreditation. So no Megatrain or similar - just one fare set everyone uses with strict compliance to the rules.
Click to expand...
Agreed. This would bring the railway into line with the relevant laws in this area.
 
Wallsendmag

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Bletchleyite said:
Classic railway, and one key reason people feel they're being ripped off.

ALL sales channels should sell ALL tickets.
Click to expand...
So I but a ticket Online Or TVM having said three people are travelling and end up paying three times the price I should. Who’s in the wrong, retailer for allowing a ticket on their site that they know is wrong or The faresetter for having the worlds most stupid ticket
 
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The fare setter is acting contrary to competition law.

If a ticket vending machine does not have appropriate signage then the owner of that machine is not complying with consumer law.

For example if a TVM stated that the full range of fares was not available and encouraged passengers to buy on board at times the ticket office was not open, this is likely to be considered compliant with consumer law.

However if a TVM encourages passengers to buy a ticket from that TVM, even when the ticket office is closed and gives no warnings that cheaper fares may be available, this is unlikely to comply with consumer law, especially if there are warning signs at the station instructing people to use the TVM and not to board without a ticket.

I would like to see a lot more enforcement action and I'd like to see some legal action being taken in these areas. Once we have one or two cases, companies will suddenly be desperate to comply with the law. But right now some companies are openly flouting the law, and getting away with it!
 
Paul Kelly

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alistairlees said:
Here's a correctly set up group ticket

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=GLC&dest=EUS&expert=on&flow=0&multi=3&fare=9&rte=347&tkt=E64

We fulfil this on to one eTicket (i.e. for the whole group); the rule is one barcode per ticket (per direction of travel).
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That's a good example of a ticket valid for a variable number of passengers done correctly. The key thing in the data needs to be that the ticket type's minimum and maximum values for passengers, adults and/or children are not the same (here it's 1-3 adults and 2-6 children). The TIS or journey planner then knows to offer this ticket type for a passenger group that lies within those limits.

Whether a coupon is issued for the entire group or for each passenger is a completely separate issue, as far as I can see. My understanding was that it was frowned upon to issue one coupon for all passengers (e.g. using the Adult THREE Child NIL boxes on the old CCST format) because of the difficulty it causes at automatic ticket gates.
reb0118 said:
These tickets are set for one adult so that one ticket is produced - and one only. Previously each member of the group was issued an individual ticket with the inevitable hassle when the group split up after a few sherbets. Their individual tickets worked the barriers and there was a great reluctance from the affected passengers to purchase new ones, or in fact merely pay an excess.
Click to expand...
But it sounds from this now like some TOCs are against issuing one coupon per passenger, because they prefer the way having just one coupon means the group must stay together?

I would be really interested to know if RDG have a definitive answer to this. It seems really daft if TOCs are resorting to abusing the data by requiring one adult to be specified when purchasing a group ticket, simply because TIS suppliers are complying with RDG's guidance to issue a separate ticket coupon for each passenger!
 
Haywain

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Indigo2 said:
But it sounds from this now like some TOCs are against issuing one coupon per passenger, because they prefer the way having just one coupon means the group must stay together?
Click to expand...
In the case of the Scotrail groupsave ticket what is printed is one coupon stating it is for one adult. Only the name of the ticket type (Groupsave 3, for example) will reveal the number of adults travelling.
 
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