Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

greatvoyager · 23 Nov 2019

Haydn1971 said:
Think it’s been suggested the 803 is for the First Open-access East Coast Trains units, which will have batteries instead of the single diesel unit of the 801’s

It has been and that would be very logical, as an 803 is essentially the non Intercity Express Programme version of the 801, but fitted with batteries.

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greatvoyager · 23 Nov 2019

Aren't the 804s supposed to have a different nose profile as well, compared to the existing 80x units?

Flinn Reed · 24 Nov 2019

How do the 803s/804s differ from the existing 80x series (and hence why given different class numbers)?

greatvoyager · 24 Nov 2019

Flinn Reed said:
How do the 803s/804s differ from the existing 80x series (and hence why given different class numbers)?

804s have shorter vehicles and 4 engines instead of 3.
803 at the moment is an unused class number.

greatvoyager · 24 Nov 2019

Are 804s going to have a buffet, or will it be a trolley service?

Prestige15 · 25 Nov 2019

greatvoyager said:
Are 804s going to have a buffet, or will it be a trolley service?

Would most likely be a trolley, Like all other 80X including the upcoming Hull Trains so far are buffet-less units apart from LNER which would be no suprise as many TOC's have been ditching buffet in favour for trolley or non catering at all in recent years.

greatvoyager said:
Aren't the 804s supposed to have a different nose profile as well, compared to the existing 80x units?

They will have a redesign nose as Hitachi claims it will be a evolution (or you can call it a facelift).

Pretty keen to know as a 5 car with four engines where would the pantograph be located? on the middle car?

rdlover777 · 25 Nov 2019

greatvoyager said:
804s have shorter vehicles and 4 engines instead of 3.
803 at the moment is an unused class number.

Apparently, the 803 was the original TOPS for TPE's 802s

greatvoyager · 25 Nov 2019

rdlover777 said:
Apparently, the 803 was the original TOPS for TPE's 802s

That's right, so I assume that means it will remain unused.

swt_passenger · 25 Nov 2019

greatvoyager said:
That's right, so I assume that means it will remain unused.

It’s been suggested previously (by two of us in this very thread) that the First group open access ECML trains will be taking 803, as they are different to the 801s in not having the single D.G. set.

greatvoyager · 25 Nov 2019

swt_passenger said:
It’s been suggested previously (by two of us in this very thread) that the First group open access ECML trains will be taking 803, as they are different to the 801s in not having the single D.G. set.

That would make sense, but previously if a train is re-designated or is proposed then not built, it's TOPS number isn't reused in order to avoid confusion.

Bletchleyite · 25 Nov 2019

swt_passenger said:
It’s been suggested previously (by two of us in this very thread) that the First group open access ECML trains will be taking 803, as they are different to the 801s in not having the single D.G. set.

They also seem to have a different nose and doors at thirds, if the artist's impressions are to be believed.

greatvoyager · 25 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
They also seem to have a different nose and doors at thirds, if the artist's impressions are to be believed.

Didn't it resemble a 395, or am I thinking of something else?

61653 HTAFC · 25 Nov 2019

Prestige15 said:
Pretty keen to know as a 5 car with four engines where would the pantograph be located? on the middle car?

My guess is one on each driving car as per the other 80x sets, as that provides redundancy if one fails. Usual practice is to use the rear pan based on direction of travel.

greatvoyager · 25 Nov 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
My guess is one on each driving car as per the other 80x sets, as that provides redundancy if one fails. Usual practice is to use the rear pan based on direction of travel.

On 80x trains it's the front pantograph that's used because of the way it's mounted.
Also, can pantographs be fitted onto motor cars? Usually they are attached to a trailing vehicle and as 804s have 4 engines, one driving car will have engine at least.

Class 170101 · 25 Nov 2019

Prestige15 said:
Pretty keen to know as a 5 car with four engines where would the pantograph be located? on the middle car?

If its in the middle it would always be an even distance between each pantograph compared to end cars.

hwl · 25 Nov 2019

Class 170101 said:
If its in the middle it would always be an even distance between each pantograph compared to end cars.

But then too close to adjacent pantographs at high speed! Ideally 1st and 10th cars on doubled up units to deal with oscillation issues.
There is an HV bus on the roof hence the pantograph and transformer don't have to be on the same vehicle.

61653 HTAFC · 25 Nov 2019

greatvoyager said:
On 80x trains it's the front pantograph that's used because of the way it's mounted.
Also, can pantographs be fitted onto motor cars? Usually they are attached to a trailing vehicle and as 804s have 4 engines, one driving car will have engine at least.

Using the front pan seems to go against the usual convention. On 390s the front pan was used initially, but switched to rear so it could be dropped if the driver spots something caught in the OHLE.

I don't think there's any reason motors and pantographs can't be on the same car. Just that generally they aren't, possibly to spread the weight out along the set.

greatvoyager · 25 Nov 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Using the front pan seems to go against the usual convention. On 390s the front pan was used initially, but switched to rear so it could be dropped if the driver spots something caught in the OHLE.

I don't think there's any reason motors and pantographs can't be on the same car. Just that generally they aren't, possibly to spread the weight out along the set.

You're probably right there. Weight distribution would be important in the design.

Bletchleyite · 25 Nov 2019

greatvoyager said:
Didn't it resemble a 395, or am I thinking of something else?

It did rather, but with longer (24m/26m) vehicles.

Class 170101 · 25 Nov 2019

hwl said:
But then too close to adjacent pantographs at high speed! Ideally 1st and 10th cars on doubled up units to deal with oscillation issues.
There is an HV bus on the roof hence the pantograph and transformer don't have to be on the same vehicle.

If in the middle it would be the same on all vehcles and should be ok, front and rear pantographs increase the chance of trains being different ways round unless two pans on each train is provided.

hwl · 25 Nov 2019

Class 170101 said:
If in the middle it would be the same on all vehicles and should be ok, front and rear pantographs increase the chance of trains being different ways round unless two pans on each train is provided.

The rest of the 80x family have pantographs on both end vehicles of the units... they already operate 1st & 10th car pans and it doesn't matter which way round they are.
In the middle isn't OK for more problematic lower tension OHLE installations at high speed*. They have to be further apart.

*E.g. south of Bedford

Class 170101 · 25 Nov 2019

hwl said:
The rest of the 80x family have pantographs on both end vehicles of the units... they already operate 1st & 10th car pans and it doesn't matter which way round they are.
In the middle isn't OK for more problematic lower tension OHLE installations at high speed*. They have to be further apart.

*E.g. south of Bedford

But are you suggesting then that south of Bedford a pair of five cars would need the front pan of the leading vehicle and rear most pan of the trailing vehicle up?

swt_passenger · 25 Nov 2019

Class 170101 said:
But are you suggesting then that south of Bedford a pair of five cars would need the front pan of the leading vehicle and rear most pan of the trailing vehicle up?

I think he is. That’s apparently how they have to operate on the GWML to allow 125 mph, it was mentioned a few weeks back. (I’ll try and find it.)

Class 170101 · 25 Nov 2019

swt_passenger said:
I think he is. That’s apparently how they have to operate on the GWML to allow 125 mph, it was mentioned a few weeks back. (I’ll try and find it.)

More understandable on the section south of Bedford on MML and east of Airport Junction on GWML if correct as they were designed for 100mph running but on the sections recently electrified west of Airport Jn and north of Bedford?

swt_passenger · 25 Nov 2019

Class 170101 said:
More understandable on the section south of Bedford on MML and east of Airport Junction on GWML if correct as they were designed for 100mph running but on the sections recently electrified west of Airport Jn and north of Bedford?

It doesn’t say does it, but I think that’s what is implied.

507021 · 25 Nov 2019

greatvoyager said:
That would make sense, but previously if a train is re-designated or is proposed then not built, it's TOPS number isn't reused in order to avoid confusion.

Not necessarily.

Class 180 was originally allocated to the Class 950 departmental DMU.
Class 316 was used three times.
Class 331 was originally allocated to the Class 332 fleet.
Class 350 was originally allocated to the Class 325 fleet.

greatvoyager · 25 Nov 2019

507021 said:
Not necessarily.

Class 180 was originally allocated to the Class 950 departmental DMU.
Class 316 was used three times.
Class 331 was originally allocated to the Class 332 fleet.
Class 350 was originally allocated to the Class 325 fleet.

I've just realised that Class 88 and 93 were also previously allocated, my mistake.

yorkie · 25 Nov 2019

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is to discuss Class 804 Construction/Introduction Updates.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already). Feel free to post a link to your new thread here if it is relevant.

Thanks

hwl · 25 Nov 2019

Class 170101 said:
But are you suggesting then that south of Bedford a pair of five cars would need the front pan of the leading vehicle and rear most pan of the trailing vehicle up?

Yes. (copy GWML and ECML practice)
The older lower tension systems run into contact wire oscillation issues at lower speeds than (modern) higher wire tension systems. min 75m pan spacing with modern B+W pantograph and older OHLE will get you to 100mph (sometimes 110mph) but above that you have to make changes.
Greater the distance between pans reduces issues and higher wire tension reduces issues.
the 804 configuration will give about 198.5m spacing but only 102.5 or 120m depending on unit orientation if they were positioned mid-unit.

greatvoyager · 25 Nov 2019

Are 804s also going to have the big kitchen area in the first class driving vehicle?

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