Could service patterns be improved at Earlestown, Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows?

ivorytoast28 · 24 Nov 2019

Why do TPE Manchester-Liverpool trains call at Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows?

Neither are really in St Helens and if they want to have a stop between Manchester and Liverpool why not choose Earlestown. It is an interchange station and sees more passengers than either NLW or LEG and looks to be in a more populated area too?

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2L70 · 24 Nov 2019

If I mentioned the word “ORCATS” would you know what I mean?

ivorytoast28 · 24 Nov 2019

2L70 said:
If I mentioned the word “ORCATS” would you know what I mean?

So it's purely to gain the extra revenue from those stations rather than providing a sensible service...

Shaw S Hunter · 24 Nov 2019

Simple answer is car parks ie those two stations are better railheads for the wider St Helens/Warrington areas than Earlestown, at least for passengers travelling any distance eastwards. Which is after all TPE's target market in that part of the world.

Johnny Lewis · 24 Nov 2019

Lea Green was chosen over St Helens Junction as apparently it has better bus links to St Helens town centre and a bigger car park, although I believe that St Helens Junction has recently had its car park enlarged.
Newton-le-Willows has also been recently refurbished and upgraded, has a big car park and good access to the M6/M62, as well as being a convenient interchange point with Northern and TfW services to Chester and beyond.
I think it's a pity though that the Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows stops aren't in the same train each hour, allowing one genuinely fast, non-stop service to run each hour (ideally the Newcastle/Edinburgh service).

gray1404 · 24 Nov 2019

I think it is a real shame that Liverpool has lost its non stop services between Liverpool and Manchester as, when they ran to time, they were a very attractive option.

geoffk · 24 Nov 2019

Not sure that it's really about ORCATS, rather providing fast services from these railheads to destinations beyond Manchester. Newton is close to parts of Warrington; TPE consulted on the choice of SHJ or LEG and I assume LEG won because of parking and bus links, as suggested above.

LNW-GW Joint · 24 Nov 2019

ivorytoast28 said:
So it's purely to gain the extra revenue from those stations rather than providing a sensible service...

The timetable specified by DfT said TPE had to stop each hour at Newton le Willows and St Helens Junction, to replace the stops the Liverpool-Manchester Airport semi-fast used to make before it was switched to the Warrington route.
It was left to TPE/NR to decide how to insert the stops, and they chose one in each service (no doubt to have a consistent timetable at Lime St and through Victoria).
St Helens council then lobbied for the St Helens Junction stop to be made at Lea Green instead.
It's got nothing to do with revenue generation or any underhand TOC tricks.

Earlestown is all of 1 mile from Newton le Willows and has very poor road access.
Newton le Willows (also St Helens Borough) has a new bus/rail interchange and a large new car park.
It has also gained improved passenger facilities and lifts for step-free access.
It all seems very sensible to me.

Bertie the bus · 24 Nov 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
Simple answer is car parks ie those two stations are better railheads for the wider St Helens/Warrington areas than Earlestown, at least for passengers travelling any distance eastwards. Which is after all TPE's target market in that part of the world.

No they are not. Both car parks are full before the end of the morning peak and so are useless to anybody using a longer distance service off peak. In fact, the only time I've tried to use Newton-le-Willows car park on a Saturday morning it was full then as well.

Ianno87 · 24 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
I think it is a real shame that Liverpool has lost its non stop services between Liverpool and Manchester as, when they ran to time, they were a very attractive option.

Even with the stops, they're still pretty quick!

I presume the stops are using in part what would otherwise be used as pathing time to fit around everything else anyway.

Starmill · 24 Nov 2019

If TransPennine Express didn't serve Newton-le-Willows, it would have seen a cut in its service frequency to Liverpool when the second TPE service was introduced. It would be cut down to just a single train per hour and would have lost its only fast service. Would this really be palatable for a station with almost a million annual users?

Wavertree Technology Park and St Helens Junction have lost out with a cut of 1tph. However, the former has a very frequent service all the same, and the latter is balanced out by improved services from nearby Lea Green.

Finally, Warrington lost its through trains to Huddersfield and York, and its express trains to Leeds. Newton-le-Willows serves as a nearby replacement railhead. Journey times from Newton-le-Willows to York are also now rather better than they were from Warrington Central to make up for it.

Starmill · 24 Nov 2019

Bertie the bus said:
No they are not. Both car parks are full before the end of the morning peak and so are useless to anybody using a longer distance service off peak. In fact, the only time I've tried to use Newton-le-Willows car park on a Saturday morning it was full then as well.

Are you suggesting that parking at Earlestown would be easier?

njlawley · 24 Nov 2019

Newton le Willows also has a large catchment, covering for other towns that lost a rail service - such as Golborne, Haydock and particularly Leigh.

156420 · 24 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
I think it is a real shame that Liverpool has lost its non stop services between Liverpool and Manchester as, when they ran to time, they were a very attractive option.

Agreed - Liverpool-Manchester Vic in 30 minutes exactly non-stop used to be a really nice option!

yorkie · 24 Nov 2019

2L70 said:
If I mentioned the word “ORCATS” would you know what I mean?

Are you sure? Do you have any source for this?

LNW-GW Joint said:
The timetable specified by DfT said TPE had to stop each hour at Newton le Willows and St Helens Junction, to replace the stops the Liverpool-Manchester Airport semi-fast used to make before it was switched to the Warrington route...

Right, so nothing to do with ORCATS then

gnolife · 24 Nov 2019

156420 said:
Agreed - Liverpool-Manchester Vic in 30 minutes exactly non-stop used to be a really nice option!

34 minutes with a call at Lea Green isn't bad though...

Starmill · 24 Nov 2019

gnolife said:
34 minutes with a call at Lea Green isn't bad though...

I seem to recall that westbound it was always scheduled for 32 minutes, too?

LNW-GW Joint · 24 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
Right, so nothing to do with ORCATS then

It was in the ITT, so it's hardly a TPE thing. The other bidders would have had to do it too.
I'm not so sure about Newcastle-Edinburgh as that was not in the ITT.
Nevertheless it would be in the TPE franchise agreement and be part of the subsidy/premium profile with DfT.

kieron · 24 Nov 2019

Newton-le-Willows is also better than Earlestown as an interchange station. The trains from Warrington use the same platform at Newton-le-Willows as the trains to Manchester. Change at Earlestown, and they're on different platforms with no route between them suitable for a wheelchair.

Earlestown does have an extra train each hour, but this doesn't gain you much with the way train departures are spaced out there.

Senex · 24 Nov 2019

gnolife said:
34 minutes with a call at Lea Green isn't bad though...

Pretty pathetic for 31¾ miles between two of the very largest and most important cities in the country.

Llandudno · 24 Nov 2019

Darn sight better than the journey time between Manchester and Sheffield...

LNW-GW Joint · 24 Nov 2019

Senex said:
Pretty pathetic for 31¾ miles between two of the very largest and most important cities in the country.

It's still only a 90mph route (75 at the eastern end) with several capacity constraints and too many small stations/stoppers at the western end.

notlob.divad · 25 Nov 2019

Lea Green has an opportunity to be a fantastic rail head. It could do with some better facilities, including lifts down to the platforms instead of the crazy ramps. It has the option of significantly better onward transportation via public transport and private vehicle. (5 mins from A570) Whilst being on the main bus routes to between St Helens and both Warrington and Widnes.

With the proper amount of investment, a truely integrated transport node could be created. The biggest barrier to this in my opinion is the name. Lea Green gives the impression it is in a small village, re-naming it as St. Helens South, would be a major improvement.

Gareth · 25 Nov 2019

I've heared talks of moving the fasts back to St Helens Junction. Not sure if that's still under consideration.

Gareth · 25 Nov 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
It's still only a 90mph route (75 at the eastern end) with several capacity constraints and too many small stations/stoppers at the western end.

Four-tracking and Merseyrail expansion would be just the ticket for the western end. You could say I'm a dreamer...

Marton · 25 Nov 2019

Newton le Willows works to transfer to Newcastle to/from North Wales.

Chester1 · 25 Nov 2019

gnolife said:
34 minutes with a call at Lea Green isn't bad though...

Exactly. A half hourly service with one stop that takes 34-36 minutes is a huge improvement on 5 years ago. I don't think saving a little bit more would be worth the loss of an express service for the big population that lives between Liverpool and Manchester.

Birkonian · 25 Nov 2019

Lea Green, NLW and Earlstown are within the Merseytravel boundary. That makes tickets to Manchester and beyond cheaper for those of us travelling from Lime Street with 60+ free travel.

Statto · 25 Nov 2019

Ideal for me as i can use combo of GMPTE Wayfarer & My Merseytravel issued disabled ENCTS pass when traveling to the GMPTE area.

Also Newton Le Willows[NLW] has just had a revamp, new entrance & bus stops on the south side, which now makes it a better P&R than Earlestown

Djgr · 25 Nov 2019

The trouble with trying to run fast trains between the major Northern cities is that every Tom, Dick and Harry want them to stop at their particular blade of grass en route.

Could service patterns be improved at Earlestown, Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows?

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