Northern - is the bad PR unfair?

Tetchytyke said:

If passengers didn't care about Wi-Fi and USB charging, bus companies wouldn't install it on their buses and use it as a promotional item.

It's mad, Arriva can install this stuff on a 15yo ex-London bus to get more passengers, but suddenly on a train it is too difficult and nobody cares anyway.

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There are plenty of buses running around from various operators without USB & WiFi. And frankly bus WiFi is even more flaky when it does work on them!! As for USB, I rarely see anyone using it on the units working commuter services & buses that have it, so I'm just guessing it really isn't a massive priority. Personally I'd say getting the stock accessibility compliant for those passengers that need those mods is far more important. The WiFi & USB can go in whenever, preferably once all the new stock is rolled out to minimise any further disruption.

Tetchytyke said:

Serco drove the race to the bottom in the first place.

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They were hamstrung by a "zero growth" franchise commitment! Which is part of my point, the lack of allowed investment over the decades is very much part of the problem. I'm afraid this long period of neglect by the DfT is going to take more than 2 or 3 years to sort out.

I’ve also heard from two different sources that bus companies are choosing not to work with Northern because of their track record of late payment of invoices

Bantamzen said:

They were hamstrung by a "zero growth" franchise commitment!

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Nonsense. The regional development agencies put plenty of investment in- Yorkshire Forward and Merseytravel paid for the extra 158s, for instance- the problem was Serco cut corners at every opportunity and didn't put a single penny of their own money in. The 142s off the Oldham Loop were stored in Blackpool rather than used, for instance, until GMPTE invested.

As I said, money for old rope.

Tetchytyke said:

Nonsense. The regional development agencies put plenty of investment in- Yorkshire Forward and Merseytravel paid for the extra 158s, for instance- the problem was Serco cut corners at every opportunity and didn't put a single penny of their own money in. The 142s off the Oldham Loop were stored in Blackpool rather than used, for instance, until GMPTE invested.

As I said, money for old rope.

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No, it isn't nonsense. The Northern franchise was tendered on the basis of "zero growth" by the DfT. It has long been a topic of discussion on these forums.

Bantamzen said:

The Northern franchise was tendered on the basis of "zero growth" by the DfT.

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Zero growth meant the DfT expected passenger numbers to remain static. I'm unsure what relevance this has to you denying Serco led a race to the bottom? I'm also unsure how they were "hamstrung" by this given that additional rolling stock was funded by the PTEs?

(Especially as the unexpected growth led to increased revenues and profits for Serco!)

DarloRich said:

it makes absolutely no difference. What does make a difference is speedy decision making

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Agreed, and that's the core of good incident management, something which I observe the railway is not very good at.

It has very little to do with where people physically are.

but what happens in the modern world is a central list of approved suppliers that will deliver the required support within the agreed timescale. That said local staff should have an agreed level of delegated authority to contact Daves taxis to get someone home in extremis.

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Agreed. FWIW, if there weren't the other issues with them (see the news) an agreement with Uber would handle that perfectly in many city locations.

More Calder Valley cancellations this morning. Unusually there was a member of staff at Bramley and I think his job was merely to advise passengers the 7.13 am service they were arriving for was cancelled.

What he didn't advise was if they had driven they could drive to New Pudsey and catch the 7.23 to Leeds.

Tetchytyke said:

Zero growth meant the DfT expected passenger numbers to remain static. I'm unsure what relevance this has to you denying Serco led a race to the bottom? I'm also unsure how they were "hamstrung" by this given that additional rolling stock was funded by the PTEs?

(Especially as the unexpected growth led to increased revenues and profits for Serco!)

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The zero growth caveat meant they could not seek to replace the even then aging Pacers, it meant that they had no scope to expand capacity, at least initially to deal with growing numbers. And even when this was partially relaxed, it meant waiting on cascades to provide at least some relief on some routes or relying on limited PTE funding. This is all very well discussed on these forums, so I'm not sure if you didn't see these conversations, or just don't want to acknowledge them. If you really are of the opinion that this zero growth caveat didn't have a serious, negative impact on the franchise then may I respectfully ask that you never lead a company bid for a future franchise, or apply for a senior role in DfT.…..

ainsworth74 said:

Worth noting that I'm not aware of any major differences in control arrangements between Arriva and Serco-Abellio so you'd need to levy the same complaint at the door of old Northern too...

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Who says I am not.?

notlob.divad said:

Who says I am not.?

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No one but lots of other people seem to react as if what went before Arriva was all milk and honey and it was only because of evil Arriva that the wheels came off the Northern cart.

Whether or not the bad PR is unfair, I hear that the existing franchise has had it's day and only has a few months to run.

HH said:

Whether or not the bad PR is unfair, I hear that the existing franchise has had it's day and only has a few months to run.

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That might be the case, but then who else is going to take it on and make turn around the problems any quicker than Arriva or Serco-Abellio can / could? Answers on a postcard to the DfT, Whitehall, London....

No, on second thoughts don't send it to them, they are at least in part responsible for the current situation.

To get back to the OP's question no, I don't think Northern's bad PR is unfair; they've been an absolute shambles of late. Of course we can't blame them for the recent floods but cancelling trains due to a shortage of drivers or new stock is simply unacceptable. Here, for example, is a screenshot from my phone for Elsecar live departures from a week last wednesday.



Out of 10 trains in the evening peak, 4 are cancelled, 2 are significantly late, leaving just 4 trains running as advertised! It just seems right now that Northern simply can't be bothered to run a decent service any more and, as it seems they can cancel as many trains as they like without any penalty, where's their incentive to run anything approaching an adequate service?

This general "can't be arsed" attitude seems to be shared by Northern traincrew as well. That same week my train to work was delayed on three consecutive days by a late start out of Sheffield due to the traincrew turning up late; again simply not acceptable. Then after an evening in Sheffield my train home was 7 minutes late departing because the driver was busy talking on his mobile and vaping in his cab. Not a long delay, but it does suggest that many Northern staff really couldn't care less about their passengers.

With such poor attitudes across Northern as a whole I really can't see how they should be allowed to keep their franchise. Fresh ideas, a more customer-focussed vision and a reliable, regular train service are desperately needed up here in Yorkshire!

CaptainHaddock said:

To get back to the OP's question no, I don't think Northern's bad PR is unfair; they've been an absolute shambles of late. Of course we can't blame them for the recent floods but cancelling trains due to a shortage of drivers or new stock is simply unacceptable. Here, for example, is a screenshot from my phone for Elsecar live departures from a week last wednesday.

View attachment 70836

Out of 10 trains in the evening peak, 4 are cancelled, 2 are significantly late, leaving just 4 trains running as advertised! It just seems right now that Northern simply can't be bothered to run a decent service any more and, as it seems they can cancel as many trains as they like without any penalty, where's their incentive to run anything approaching an adequate service?

This general "can't be arsed" attitude seems to be shared by Northern traincrew as well. That same week my train to work was delayed on three consecutive days by a late start out of Sheffield due to the traincrew turning up late; again simply not acceptable. Then after an evening in Sheffield my train home was 7 minutes late departing because the driver was busy talking on his mobile and vaping in his cab. Not a long delay, but it does suggest that many Northern staff really couldn't care less about their passengers.

With such poor attitudes across Northern as a whole I really can't see how they should be allowed to keep their franchise. Fresh ideas, a more customer-focussed vision and a reliable, regular train service are desperately needed up here in Yorkshire!

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'train crew turning up late' isn't anything to do with bad timekeeping by train crew. It's usually because they were delayed on an inbound train which they were working or travelling passenger on.

CaptainHaddock said:

To get back to the OP's question no, I don't think Northern's bad PR is unfair; they've been an absolute shambles of late. Of course we can't blame them for the recent floods but cancelling trains due to a shortage of drivers or new stock is simply unacceptable. Here, for example, is a screenshot from my phone for Elsecar live departures from a week last wednesday.

View attachment 70836

Out of 10 trains in the evening peak, 4 are cancelled, 2 are significantly late, leaving just 4 trains running as advertised! It just seems right now that Northern simply can't be bothered to run a decent service any more and, as it seems they can cancel as many trains as they like without any penalty, where's their incentive to run anything approaching an adequate service?

This general "can't be arsed" attitude seems to be shared by Northern traincrew as well. That same week my train to work was delayed on three consecutive days by a late start out of Sheffield due to the traincrew turning up late; again simply not acceptable. Then after an evening in Sheffield my train home was 7 minutes late departing because the driver was busy talking on his mobile and vaping in his cab. Not a long delay, but it does suggest that many Northern staff really couldn't care less about their passengers.

With such poor attitudes across Northern as a whole I really can't see how they should be allowed to keep their franchise. Fresh ideas, a more customer-focussed vision and a reliable, regular train service are desperately needed up here in Yorkshire!

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Any suggestions on an operator owner that might make things well in a relatively short space of time? First Group? Stagecoach? Abellio? Serco? Govia? DfT?

If you look across the forums, each & every one of these owning companies gets bad press & criticism, has people regularly complaining about punctuality, cancellations, cost of fares, delay repay claims etc etc. I'd suggest a RUK based owner, expect that the trains would never get out of the depots as people would be breaking into to scuffles over seat to window alignments, seat types & colours, liveries.....

The point is that our railway network is what it is, in many parts there has been chronic under investment and that is starting to show through. Yes operators often get things wrong, but sometimes things are beyond their control. Did you look up the possible reasons for those cancellations above on something like RTT?

For the record I don't share your views on Northern staff. Even when things have gone wrong they, in my experience try to do their very best, even when they are taking flak from fellow commuters. We've even had someone from their management team engaging on these very forums, trying at least to resolve some of the issue that they can. Yes there will always be the odd one being grumpy or unprofessional, but for the most part in West Yorkshire at least they have upped their game under Arriva, not that they were that bad under the previous franchise.

Bantamzen said:

If you really are of the opinion that this zero growth caveat didn't have a serious, negative impact on the franchise then may I respectfully ask that you never lead a company bid for a future franchise, or apply for a senior role in DfT

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It had an impact on overcrowding. It had no other impact. The centralisation of control, and the general crappiness of Serco's service, was not down to the no growth. "No growth" meant "no new trains", not "do nothing except count your money".

As I said, the PTEs paid for extra trains so that was sorted, no thanks to Serco who refused to invest their own money. And Serco made more profit than they expected because revenues were higher than expected. Serco were making £30m a year profit off Northern. Not a bad return off the back of 35p investment.

I'm well aware of what the franchise terms were, and I was of the opinion then- as now- that Serco attempted to hide their own deliberate corner-cutting and penny-pinching behind the franchise terms. Northern was very profitable for them.

Bantamzen said:

Any suggestions on an operator owner that might make things well in a relatively short space of time? First Group? Stagecoach? Abellio? Serco? Govia? DfT?

If you look across the forums, each & every one of these owning companies gets bad press & criticism, has people regularly complaining about punctuality, cancellations, cost of fares, delay repay claims etc etc. I'd suggest a RUK based owner, expect that the trains would never get out of the depots as people would be breaking into to scuffles over seat to window alignments, seat types & colours, liveries.....

The point is that our railway network is what it is, in many parts there has been chronic under investment and that is starting to show through. Yes operators often get things wrong, but sometimes things are beyond their control. Did you look up the possible reasons for those cancellations above on something like RTT?

For the record I don't share your views on Northern staff. Even when things have gone wrong they, in my experience try to do their very best, even when they are taking flak from fellow commuters. We've even had someone from their management team engaging on these very forums, trying at least to resolve some of the issue that they can. Yes there will always be the odd one being grumpy or unprofessional, but for the most part in West Yorkshire at least they have upped their game under Arriva, not that they were that bad under the previous franchise.

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Whilst all that may be true, cancelling trains due to driver shortages is entirely Northern's responsibility and must a be a consequence of a badly-planned training programme and recruitment policy. The "driver shortage" excuse has been used for months now; even if it does take 12 months to train a driver, this issue should have been addressed well over a year ago!

bengley said:

'train crew turning up late' isn't anything to do with bad timekeeping by train crew. It's usually because they were delayed on an inbound train which they were working or travelling passenger on.

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I'm fully aware of that; I have access to TOPS and can see that the traincrew take the 0611 XC from Leeds to Sheffield which only gives them 15 minutes time in Sheffield. Surely traincrew should be using their own transport to get to work on time rather than risking an unreliable train service? Isn't having your own transport a condition of becoming a member of traincrew in the first place as if you were manning the first or last train of the day there wouild be no public transport to get you there on time?

CaptainHaddock said:

I'm fully aware of that; I have access to TOPS and can see that the traincrew take the 0611 XC from Leeds to Sheffield which only gives them 15 minutes time in Sheffield. Surely traincrew should be using their own transport to get to work on time rather than risking an unreliable train service? Isn't having your own transport a condition of becoming a member of traincrew in the first place as if you were manning the first or last train of the day there wouild be no public transport to get you there on time?

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1. Are they definitely Sheffield traincrew rather than Leeds travelling pass? If they're delayed off the same train every day unless Northern Sheffield traincrew live in a commune in Leeds I'm inclined to suggest they're booking on at their depot in Leeds and booked to travel pass.

2. We can choose to take the train to work like anyone else. Parking at Sheffield is limited and use of public transport is encouraged. If you have to drive you have to drive but like any other employer using public transport is encouraged. At my own depot the car park is regularly full and train crew can equally be delayed by tail backs on to a red route road preventing access.

3. I'm surprised TOPS is of any use to you at all in working out the movements of traincrews.

Traincrew are required to be able to get themselves in to work and home again at any time in case of shifts where public transport isn't available, whether by car, pushbike, skateboard or helicopter. But if they elect to use an advertised train with adequate timings and that train is delayed/cancelled? No blame attributable for any knock-on effects so long as they ring their signing on point in good time to advise them. As said, we are encouraged to use the train.

The vast majority, 95%+ of 'shortage of train crew' delays & cancellations are because diagrams are too tight for realistic turnarounds, increasingly see us travelling around as passengers all over the place (especially on TPE whose performance & reliability is dire) or in taxis with unrealistic timings, or the booked driver/guard still hasn't been trained on the route or traction due to massive training backlogs and useful spare capacity is down to zero - everybody has already been used.

The tighter the traincrew diagrams are, the quicker the tipping point is reached where the service falls apart. Many TOCs use the same computerised system to produce diagrams now in an attempt to save money. One of the biggest cons in the industry is that the TOCs produce these over-intricate traincrew diagrams and then if something happens that can be pinned on Network Rail for delay attribution purposes the whole service falls apart immediately with no real inclination or possibility for the TOC to recover the service. If traincrew diagrams were more robust this disruption would be lessened, but then that wouldn't necessarily suit the TOCs agendas. Same with training - TOCs gamble that they can run a service with only say 80% of traincrew fully productive on routes and traction, depending on the nature of the depot (obviously some depots are less complex than others). Training costs money.

There are diagrams at my depot where as soon as you pick them up after signing on you read them and immediately think "I'll be lucky if that actually happens". Imagine as a passenger having a rover ticket and being given a set list of trains to catch throughout the day, you could spot the iffy connections a mile off.

CaptainHaddock said:

Whilst all that may be true, cancelling trains due to driver shortages is entirely Northern's responsibility and must a be a consequence of a badly-planned training programme and recruitment policy. The "driver shortage" excuse has been used for months now; even if it does take 12 months to train a driver, this issue should have been addressed well over a year ago!

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I don't know exactly how long it does take to train a driver. But let's say it is 12 months, when did Northern start recruiting? 2016? 2017? 2018? I do know that earlier this year there did seem to be a number of trainee drivers using services out of Leeds on their way home. So even if these guys had started their training at the beginning of this year, they still wouldn't be ready to drive yet.

But you are making all sorts of assumptions you can't back up. TOCs will likely start recruiting for crews anything up to 18 months in advance of them being needed. Given all that has happened in that period, some of it Northern's fault, but a lot of it not, how would you propose doing things better than they have? And that's before you consider the training of existing drivers on new stock that subsequently got delayed, which is bound to have had an impact on training programmes. Without knowing what Arriva's plans where recruitment-wise through the first years of their operation, it is difficult to know if it really was just bad planning, or a knock-on effect from other issues.

And all this is true of lots of the issues with not just Northern, but other operators that have had problems over the years. A lot of things have gone wrong on our railway network in the second half of this decade, from delays in refurbishment of existing stock, new stock deliveries, late engineering works resulting in rushed timetable changes, industrial action and so on. I wouldn't expect your average punter to weigh these things up, or even your local hack copy & pasting stories from other local hacks, but on these & other forums we've had the privilege of more insight into all these kinds of issues, and the impact they've had.

Llama said:

Traincrew are required to be able to get themselves in to work and home again at any time in case of shifts where public transport isn't available, whether by car, pushbike, skateboard or helicopter. But if they elect to use an advertised train with adequate timings and that train is delayed/cancelled? No blame attributable for any knock-on effects so long as they ring their signing on point in good time to advise them. As said, we are encouraged to use the train.

The vast majority, 95%+ of 'shortage of train crew' delays & cancellations are because diagrams are too tight for realistic turnarounds, increasingly see us travelling around as passengers all over the place (especially on TPE whose performance & reliability is dire) or in taxis with unrealistic timings, or the booked driver/guard still hasn't been trained on the route or traction due to massive training backlogs and useful spare capacity is down to zero - everybody has already been used.

The tighter the traincrew diagrams are, the quicker the tipping point is reached where the service falls apart. Many TOCs use the same computerised system to produce diagrams now in an attempt to save money. One of the biggest cons in the industry is that the TOCs produce these over-intricate traincrew diagrams and then if something happens that can be pinned on Network Rail for delay attribution purposes the whole service falls apart immediately with no real inclination or possibility for the TOC to recover the service. If traincrew diagrams were more robust this disruption would be lessened, but then that wouldn't necessarily suit the TOCs agendas. Same with training - TOCs gamble that they can run a service with only say 80% of traincrew fully productive on routes and traction, depending on the nature of the depot (obviously some depots are less complex than others). Training costs money.

There are diagrams at my depot where as soon as you pick them up after signing on you read them and immediately think "I'll be lucky if that actually happens". Imagine as a passenger having a rover ticket and being given a set list of trains to catch throughout the day, you could spot the iffy connections a mile off.

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That's interesting to read, and begs the question who or what is the driver in these cost cutting exercises? Clearly profits are going to be one, that's true of any private company. But I would also ask in the case of Northern if pressure to reduce subsidies along with franchise requirements to increase capacity / service are leading to the kind of thinking in the boardroom that is seen in airline companies, i.e. a train not moving is a train not making money? If so, then no manner of franchise changes will have any effect, the problem lies at those selling the franchises, in this case the DfT. I have long argued that the current franchise system is flawed, and that no amount of mud-slinging at TOCs would change that. I'd say this is just another piece of evidence towards this.

Training a driver takes about twelve months. But at the end of that you will have a driver who is competent in a couple of basic routes and basic traction. Training them up on all the required routes and traction they will need to be fully productive in their rostered ('linked') work takes years depending how complex the depot is. Somewhere like Workington, drivers will be pretty much fully competent after their initial training. Somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly or Victoria where there are hundreds of drivers, dozens of different routes and all manner of traction, you are looking at up to five years before a new driver will be fully productive.

ainsworth74 said:

No one but lots of other people seem to react as if what went before Arriva was all milk and honey and it was only because of evil Arriva that the wheels came off the Northern cart.

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No one who has used Northern over the last few years can possibly think that. Clearly we've had decades of underinvestment. However, relative to Arriva, Serco did at least manage to run a relatively reliable service, albeit with increasingly decrepit rolling stock. Since Arriva took over there has been a massive fall-off in punctuality and a big increase in cancellations. Arriva came in promising to sort things out and somehow they've managed to make things worse despite their investments in new rolling stock.

Llama said:

Training a driver takes about twelve months. But at the end of that you will have a driver who is competent in a couple of basic routes and basic traction. Training them up on all the required routes and traction they will need to be fully productive in their rostered ('linked') work takes years depending how complex the depot is. Somewhere like Workington, drivers will be pretty much fully competent after their initial training. Somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly or Victoria where there are hundreds of drivers, dozens of different routes and all manner of traction, you are looking at up to five years before a new driver will be fully productive.

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All of which should be understood by a competent operator, who should make their plans accordingly.

Many of the things on this thread have been discussed numerous times over the last 18 months and I’m not going to join in again, but I will make 2 points:

1. When the service you provide to customers is disintegrating, as it was in May last year, you can’t refuse to talk to the media for several days, as Northern did, and then expect the media or your customers to be on your side.
2. When you do talk to the media a response to everything of ‘Nothing to do with us, Gov. We’re busy delivering on our promises’ when both are blatantly untrue is just going to put people’s back up.

So the answer to the question is the bad PR unfair? Absolutely not. No doubt about it at all.

Bertie the bus said:

Many of the things on this thread have been discussed numerous times over the last 18 months and I’m not going to join in again, but I will make 2 points:

1. When the service you provide to customers is disintegrating, as it was in May last year, you can’t refuse to talk to the media for several days, as Northern did, and then expect the media or your customers to be on your side.
2. When you do talk to the media a response to everything of ‘Nothing to do with us, Gov. We’re busy delivering on our promises’ when both are blatantly untrue is just going to put people’s back up.

So the answer to the question is the bad PR unfair? Absolutely not. No doubt about it at all.

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Yes. This hits the nail on the head.

Also, from a PR point of view, it was around this time that one of the Directors was abusing customers on social media

CaptainHaddock said:

I'm fully aware of that; I have access to TOPS and can see that the traincrew take the 0611 XC from Leeds to Sheffield which only gives them 15 minutes time in Sheffield. Surely traincrew should be using their own transport to get to work on time rather than risking an unreliable train service? Isn't having your own transport a condition of becoming a member of traincrew in the first place as if you were manning the first or last train of the day there wouild be no public transport to get you there on time?

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If you have access to TOPS or Genius you should also know that if they are shown as passing on a particular train then if that particular train is late it is not their fault. They are not travelling to work, they are travelling between their depot (Leeds) and where their train service starts (Sheffield) on their booked Pass train.

The thing that annoys me most about Northern at the moment is their repeated and regular abandonment of certain routes and then totally failing to make any arrangements for their passengers.

They sometimes cancel the trains out of Nottingham for literally hours at a time consecutively, don't bother to sort out ticket acceptance with EMR and effectively abandon Ilkeston, Langley Mill and Dronfield.

I'm sick of being accosted on my way home last thing at night to find Northern have binned the last services out with people panicking about getting home.

The ones whereby they're cancelled because they've redeployed the 158s to the Huddersfield service and put the Pacers on routes they're not cleared to work causing them to be cancelled are pretty much unforgivable for me.

Llama said:

Traincrew are required to be able to get themselves in to work and home again at any time in case of shifts where public transport isn't available, whether by car, pushbike, skateboard or helicopter. But if they elect to use an advertised train with adequate timings and that train is delayed/cancelled? No blame attributable for any knock-on effects so long as they ring their signing on point in good time to advise them. As said, we are encouraged to use the train.

The vast majority, 95%+ of 'shortage of train crew' delays & cancellations are because diagrams are too tight for realistic turnarounds, increasingly see us travelling around as passengers all over the place (especially on TPE whose performance & reliability is dire) or in taxis with unrealistic timings, or the booked driver/guard still hasn't been trained on the route or traction due to massive training backlogs and useful spare capacity is down to zero - everybody has already been used.

The tighter the traincrew diagrams are, the quicker the tipping point is reached where the service falls apart. Many TOCs use the same computerised system to produce diagrams now in an attempt to save money. One of the biggest cons in the industry is that the TOCs produce these over-intricate traincrew diagrams and then if something happens that can be pinned on Network Rail for delay attribution purposes the whole service falls apart immediately with no real inclination or possibility for the TOC to recover the service. If traincrew diagrams were more robust this disruption would be lessened, but then that wouldn't necessarily suit the TOCs agendas. Same with training - TOCs gamble that they can run a service with only say 80% of traincrew fully productive on routes and traction, depending on the nature of the depot (obviously some depots are less complex than others). Training costs money.

There are diagrams at my depot where as soon as you pick them up after signing on you read them and immediately think "I'll be lucky if that actually happens". Imagine as a passenger having a rover ticket and being given a set list of trains to catch throughout the day, you could spot the iffy connections a mile off.

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Indeed, I often choose the skateboard option myself which I'm sure you can imagine invokes many reactions in the Messroom

bengley said:

'train crew turning up late' isn't anything to do with bad timekeeping by train crew. It's usually because they were delayed on an inbound train which they were working or travelling passenger on.

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Being delayed on an incoming train is one thing, standing around having a lengthy chat with colleagues before sauntering up the platform bang on the scheduled departure time, with all the prospective passengers still waiting on the platform because the train is locked, is something else.

Turning up at the vehicle after the scheduled departure time, having already been on the premises for some time, has been common with bus drivers for years. It would seem Arriva have imported the practice to the railways.