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Disruption to Southern (and GWR) Services during the SWR strike

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London Trains

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Reminder: This is not a discussion about DOO or Guards on SWR trains.

Since SWR have cut all services from Dorking/ Guildford via Epsom, theres clearly going to cause problems on Southern.

Dorking goes from 4tph to 2tph
Boxhill goes from 3tph to 1tph
Leatherhead/Ashtead go from 6tph to 2tph

... Bookham goes from 2tph to 3tpd each way, with only 2 trains in the peak direction during each peak!

Surely there will be mass overcrowding on Southern, and will they amend their timetable? They could extend services to help or (more likely) cut the peak extras so stations to/from Guildford arent overcrowding the Southern services.
 
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ctrh136

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I don't think SN have done anything before to help cover the SWR strikes, doubt they have the rolling stock and staff available.
 

Surreytraveller

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I don't think SN have done anything before to help cover the SWR strikes, doubt they have the rolling stock and staff available.
Southern used to borrow SWT class 455 trains during SWT strikes to strengthen theirs, but I don't think this is possible any more since trains have been refurbished, drivers will no longer sign the traction.
People who use Bookham can walk to Leatherhead.
How would you expect Southern to amend their timetable - cancel trains to prevent overcrowding?
 

cjohnson

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SWR are running an hourly bus service between Effingham Jct and Epsom which should cover some of the missing train services.
 

zoneking

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The hourly bus is much slower than the train. They could have arranged the train times such that a change at Wimbledon was realistic (Epsom to Guildford), but with an hourly service there would be a 54 minute wait.

The only acceptable way to get from Epsom to Guildford is Southern to Dorking then GWR Dorking Deepdene to Guildford. This is much worse than the previous strike timetable.
 

quartile

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The only acceptable way to get from Epsom to Guildford is Southern to Dorking then GWR Dorking Deepdene to Guildford. This is much worse than the previous strike timetable.

I go from Guildford to Epsom offpeak. Is it a valid route on the ticket? They've announced alternative ticket acceptance elsewhere on Southern but not going this way.
 

cjohnson

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Guildford - Epsom via Dorking isn't a mapped route (and shows as requiring multiple tickets on NRE), and there is nothing on SWR's site suggesting that tickets will be accepted on GWR that way. Similarly there doesn't apear to be any ticket acceptance on the 479 bus that runs between the two.
 

tsr

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Surely there will be mass overcrowding on Southern, and will they amend their timetable? They could extend services to help or (more likely) cut the peak extras so stations to/from Guildford arent overcrowding the Southern services.

Unlikely to have major overcrowding from stations between Guildford and Bookham. The Southern peak time services to and from Guildford are usually completely empty west of Bookham, on a normal day, and they’re all 10 coach 377 formations with a substantial amount of space onboard. The few peak time services aren’t likely to tally up with the times everyone from Bookham wants to travel, anyway.

That said, I can imagine Leatherhead and Ashtead are “interesting” at the moment. The Southern services which are virtually empty from the Guildford route can become full-and-standing at just those two stations alone, and that’s with a full SWR service running too.

Southern used to borrow SWT class 455 trains during SWT strikes to strengthen theirs, but I don't think this is possible any more since trains have been refurbished, drivers will no longer sign the traction.

Quite so. Southern and SWR 455s are some way apart in terms of specifications, so I doubt you’ll ever find them being seen as interchangeable. Southern train crew licences sometimes only specify “455/8” (ie. the /8 sub-class) as the relevant competency as well.

Aside from that, pretty much all Southern 455s are now booked to run in multiple anyway, meaning they couldn’t be extended (or at least not in passenger service).

Guildford - Epsom via Dorking isn't a mapped route (and shows as requiring multiple tickets on NRE), and there is nothing on SWR's site suggesting that tickets will be accepted on GWR that way.

In practice, I doubt any of the GWR crews would have a problem with it. They’re usually very sensible about such things, and nobody local would bat an eyelid at that route during disruption. If uncertain, best to just ask them at the back cab of the train before getting onboard, which should suffice.
 

FenMan

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Guildford - Epsom via Dorking isn't a mapped route (and shows as requiring multiple tickets on NRE), and there is nothing on SWR's site suggesting that tickets will be accepted on GWR that way. Similarly there doesn't apear to be any ticket acceptance on the 479 bus that runs between the two.

Guildford - Sutton (London) is valid by either route, according to NRE.
 

London Trains

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Unlikely to have major overcrowding from stations between Guildford and Bookham. The Southern peak time services to and from Guildford are usually completely empty west of Bookham, on a normal day, and they’re all 10 coach 377 formations with a substantial amount of space onboard. The few peak time services aren’t likely to tally up with the times everyone from Bookham wants to travel, anyway.

That said, I can imagine Leatherhead and Ashtead are “interesting” at the moment. The Southern services which are virtually empty from the Guildford route can become full-and-standing at just those two stations alone, and that’s with a full SWR service running too.

True, but with the limited service Guildford to Effingham Junction and the non existent SWR service at Bookham, as well as the proximity of London Bridge and Waterloo, only a couple of minutes away from each other on the Jubilee Line, commuters way well choose to use these services over a bus or a walk. This being said, this would create a bigger issue at Leatherhead and Ashtead if the normal commuters were unable to board their regular service.
 

Starmill

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In practice, I doubt any of the GWR crews would have a problem with it. They’re usually very sensible about such things, and nobody local would bat an eyelid at that route during disruption. If uncertain, best to just ask them at the back cab of the train before getting onboard, which should suffice.
Although I wouldn't be surprised to read of a case where GTR revenue issued a person with a ticket from Epsom to Guildford a Penalty Fare either on the way to or at Dorking, irrespective of the view of GWR conductors.
 

RealTrains07

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Unlikely to have major overcrowding from stations between Guildford and Bookham. The Southern peak time services to and from Guildford are usually completely empty west of Bookham, on a normal day, and they’re all 10 coach 377 formations with a substantial amount of space onboard. The few peak time services aren’t likely to tally up with the times everyone from Bookham wants to travel, anyway.

That said, I can imagine Leatherhead and Ashtead are “interesting” at the moment. The Southern services which are virtually empty from the Guildford route can become full-and-standing at just those two stations alone, and that’s with a full SWR service running too.



Quite so. Southern and SWR 455s are some way apart in terms of specifications, so I doubt you’ll ever find them being seen as interchangeable. Southern train crew licences sometimes only specify “455/8” (ie. the /8 sub-class) as the relevant competency as well.

Aside from that, pretty much all Southern 455s are now booked to run in multiple anyway, meaning they couldn’t be extended (or at least not in passenger service).



In practice, I doubt any of the GWR crews would have a problem with it. They’re usually very sensible about such things, and nobody local would bat an eyelid at that route during disruption. If uncertain, best to just ask them at the back cab of the train before getting onboard, which should suffice.
10 coach 377s? How is that possible at most i thought each were 4 car units . At least they fit the platform at Guildford
 

hwl

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10 coach 377s? How is that possible at most i thought each were 4 car units . At least they fit the platform at Guildford
5+5 using 377/6 &/7
or
3+3+4 using 2x 377/3 & 1x 377/1 or 377/4

The 2 different permutations occur in about a 2:1 ratio
 

tsr

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True, but with the limited service Guildford to Effingham Junction and the non existent SWR service at Bookham, as well as the proximity of London Bridge and Waterloo, only a couple of minutes away from each other on the Jubilee Line, commuters way well choose to use these services over a bus or a walk. This being said, this would create a bigger issue at Leatherhead and Ashtead if the normal commuters were unable to board their regular service.

I did mention the situation at Leatherhead and Ashtead before. This is probably the main cause of concern because they are exceedingly busy for both Southern & SWR and will have a much-reduced service both from Dorking and Guildford.

In terms of morning peak services, I reckon that people will still try to use their normal SWR route from London Road Guildford-Effingham Jn inclusive, as the Southern service is generally perceived as much slower (even though it no longer goes "round the houses" north of Sutton, like it used to!). Even if the passengers from the SWR services either side of the Southern ones did end up using the alternative option, it still shouldn't cause serious overcrowding. Again, virtually nobody whatsoever uses the Southern services between Bookham and Guildford & vice versa on a normal day, so you have a good few hundred spare seats, not accounting for standing room as well.

In other words, if you are planning to use the Southern services because they run at a handy time of day, you'll be fine to board as far as Bookham, but beyond there, every train will be busy.

The evening peak services heading from London will be interesting, as the trains only really empty out by Leatherhead. There are quite sufficient numbers of commuters from London Bridge to places in the Sutton and Epsom areas, and plenty wanting to board at Epsom and travel to Ashtead or Leatherhead (Epsom is a surprising generator of its own commuter traffic, as the centre of town is so close to the station, and it's normally well-connected to all the other major local towns). I can imagine any normal SWR commuters will want to change at Epsom for Bookham and stations to Guildford, as they won't be able to all squeeze onboard at London Bridge. If they do that, they should be just about OK, at a pinch - but extra passengers out of London Bridge probably won't work very well!

Although I wouldn't be surprised to read of a case where GTR revenue issued a person with a ticket from Epsom to Guildford a Penalty Fare either on the way to or at Dorking, irrespective of the view of GWR conductors.

I would be very surprised indeed. GTR's Southern side has a mere handful of revenue staff, and they're generally not interested in catching people doing reasonable things because their normal choice of route is closed. There are much bigger revenue issues that they are dealing with at the moment.

10 coach 377s? How is that possible at most i thought each were 4 car units . At least they fit the platform at Guildford

377s can operate up to 10 coach (Metro) or 12 coach (Mainline) formations in passenger service and have done for the best part of a couple of decades now!

Guildford services are generally formed of 2x 377/3 and 1x 377/1 coupled together. The odd 377/4 creeps in, here and there, as well. Very rarely, a 377/2 unit has been spotted, but these are mostly used on the West London Line.

Pre-May 2018, most trains were formed of 455/8s, with just one 377 circuit on the Guildford route, but this was then changed for consistency to become an all-377 service (although this also results in extremely slow dispatch and permanent minor delays, because very few of the SWR guard dispatch monitors match up with 377 door positions...!).
 

Kite159

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Slightly off-topic as it relates to the WMR strike, but I noticed the Transport for Wales services heading towards Shrewsbury are showing as being pick up only at Smethwick & Wolverhampton, I guess to reduce overcrowding by Wolverhampton passengers at New Street which might prevent passengers heading further afield from being able to board?
 

Horizon22

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The Horsham (via Dorking) services might also be fairly well loaded; from past experience they don't get a very high loading until Epsom and they are going to Victoria (but a change at Clapham is available) but might change with the strikes.
 
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