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EMR December 2020 Timetable Consultation

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swt_passenger

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I'm suggesting the Leeds note would have prompted the question and answer received and that is what should be in the consultation in some form?
All I originally pointed out was that there was no mention of Leeds services as originally published. It wouldn’t be usual to keep amending a consultation on the basis of points raised subsequently by email, or where would it ever end?
 
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Pumbaa

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Yes, I take the point, but the Kettering figures are at the beginning of the section devoted to the 'intercity' service and map.
I can't find journey times for the 'Electrics' but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.

You’re not. It’s on page 20.
 

edwin_m

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However, the consultation FAQs explains just why they aren't doing that:
“Q. Is it possible to stop one of the Sheffield services at Kettering, rather than both Nottingham services?
A. Unfortunately not. The Sheffield and Nottingham trains have to leave London St Pancras International quite close together and therefore stopping a Sheffield service at Kettering would add significant journey time, as the Nottingham service would have to wait behind it.”
Sounds like this is actually restoring something more resembling the pre-May 18 pattern, two paths flighted every half hour, with one path on the opposing quarter-hour.
However that doesn't fit with the statements on the Leicester page about 4TPH with reasonably even departure times.
 

43074

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However that doesn't fit with the statements on the Leicester page about 4TPH with reasonably even departure times.

I think that only applies in the London direction by the wording of it. I think they're being a bit flexible with the truth as it says that about Nottingham too, albeit every 30 minutes, but with the stopping pattern proposed it is probably more like a 20/40 split based on one of the two trains having three additional calls and the consistent half hourly intervals for Harborough and Kettering calls.
 

pt_mad

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Yes to Market Harborough - it will be a stop on the Nottingham services. No to Wellingborough which will be getting the 2 tph Corby service.

Basically for Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough it will mean a change at Kettering for Leicester and Nottingham and a further change at Leicester for Derby and Sheffield.

There's no real justification for stopping more at Luton, Bedford or Wellingborough (the former two have an extensive Thameslink service). I think the bigger problem will be the 2 changes to get to Sheffield and Derby, though depending on the timings that *could* be addressed by stopping 1 Sheffield at Kettering instead of 1 Nottingham.

The basic outline is exactly what I've been saying will happen for a while - despite the many protestations to the contrary, Luton and Bedford really don't warrant longer distance services stopping there. Of the two, Luton and at that Airport Parkway makes a better case.

Does Wellingborough currently have an intercity service or is it already a requirement to change at Kettering? I know it used to.

If they do, how will this go down there that a change will be required?
 

VT 390

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Does Wellingborough currently have an intercity service or is it already a requirement to change at Kettering? I know it used to.

If they do, how will this go down there that a change will be required?
Off Peak Wellingborough is currently served by the Corby and slow Nottingham services.
 

Nick Nation

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Does Wellingborough currently have an intercity service or is it already a requirement to change at Kettering? I know it used to.

If they do, how will this go down there that a change will be required?
It's not going down well at all, Wellingborough loses out on all this, slower average off peak time to St P compared to pre May 18 (?), inferior rolling stock coming in, lack of connectivity north, basically getting an Outer Suburban service at Inter City prices.
 

Aictos

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It's not going down well at all, Wellingborough loses out on all this, slower average off peak time to St P compared to pre May 18 (?), inferior rolling stock coming in, lack of connectivity north, basically getting an Outer Suburban service at Inter City prices.

However has it's already been explained the "inferior rolling stock" will be refurbished with wifi, power sockets, improved 1st class etc so they will look nothing like they do at the moment. The reason they have to enter service in ex Anglia condition is simply because otherwise there will be short forms and it's only a tempory thing to have them in that condition.

Wellingborough actually does quite well out of this consulation with decent connections at Kettering which is only one station away and once the EMR Electrics start you get a half hourly service between 6am and 10pm which is limited stops calling Bedford, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway then London formed of 12 car services (not sure if all day or just in peaks, if just in peaks then running 8 car trains off peak is still a upgrade over a hourly 5 car Class 222) plus you get far more seats then you do at the moment and seeing as the EMR Electrics only start at Corby I doubt every seat will be taken by the time it gets to Wellingborough.

I really don't see why Wellingborough feels the need to kick off with the exception of the IC fares, they just come across as being ungrateful.
 

skifans

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Anyone know whats up with the list of stations in the "home stations" on that consultation? I can't pick Dore & Totley which is quite significantly affected with the loss of its link beyond Nottingham. Some Hope Valley stations appear such as Hathersage and Bamford - even though they get less EMR trains. Although Grindleford and Hope seem to be missing. Matlock seems to have gained an extra station (Matlock, Matlock Bath & Matlock Station). But Barrow in Furness is a valid option!
 
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Killingworth

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Anyone know whats up with the list of stations in the "home stations" on that consultation? I can't pick Dore & Totley which is quite significantly affected with the loss of its link beyond Norwich. Some Hope Valley stations appear such as Hathersage and Bamford - even though they get less EMR trains. Although Grindleford and Hope seem to be missing. Matlock seems to have gained an extra station (Matlock, Matlock Bath & Matlock Station). But Barrow in Furness is a valid option!
,
Strange Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool and Warrington seem to be missing too. In the land of the lost, with no EMR future so no consideration or change necessary.

A Barrow case!
 

skifans

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Strange Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool and Warrington seem to be missing too. In the land of the lost, with no EMR future so no consideration or change necessary.

A Barrow case!
Don't know how I missed those, looks like they'll be stopping at Hunts Cross and Widnes instead!
 

InTheEastMids

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However has it's already been explained the "inferior rolling stock" will be refurbished with wifi, power sockets, improved 1st class etc so they will look nothing like they do at the moment. The reason they have to enter service in ex Anglia condition is simply because otherwise there will be short forms and it's only a tempory thing to have them in that condition.

Wellingborough actually does quite well out of this consulation with decent connections at Kettering which is only one station away and once the EMR Electrics start you get a half hourly service between 6am and 10pm which is limited stops calling Bedford, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway then London formed of 12 car services (not sure if all day or just in peaks, if just in peaks then running 8 car trains off peak is still a upgrade over a hourly 5 car Class 222) plus you get far more seats then you do at the moment and seeing as the EMR Electrics only start at Corby I doubt every seat will be taken by the time it gets to Wellingborough.

I really don't see why Wellingborough feels the need to kick off with the exception of the IC fares, they just come across as being ungrateful.

Trying to imagine the whole of Wellingborough 'kicking off'...

Serious point is that to the average consumer that isn't paying rapt attention to this forum and EMR PR, these trains will feel like a serious downgrade when they show up. Also notable that Kettering, with its non stop services could seem closer to London.

For commuters, you can argue the value point both ways. Based on EMR website and railmiles, the season tickets work out like this
Bedford (TL only) - £4836 - £98/mile
Bedford (any op) - £5500 - £112/mile
Wellingborough - £6500 - £101/mile
Kettering - £7232 - £101/mile
M Harborough - £8376 - £101/mile

So in cost per mile terms it's completely in line, however it is legitimate to argue that Both Bedford and Kettering benefit from higher frequency and Kettering, the extra trains will be the Hitachis.

Although this consultation doesn't cover the rush hours, so a pinch of salt required there.
 

tbtc

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Where did EMR confirm the continuation of the Leeds services?

I asked them through Twitter they said it was a franchise commitment

There’s maybe a difference between the commitment to keep running to Leeds in the short term and the longer term commitments (e.g. when there’s no guarantee that the 804s will run out of Neville Hill).

I wouldn’t be surprised if the initial franchise requirements commit them to maintaining all services inherited from EMT (in the short term), but with no requirement for these to all continue (in the medium/ long term).

I’m not sure that the person answering enquiries on Twitter is privy to all information anyway – they may be trying to help and trying to reassure existing passengers but I’d not put too much on it. Enthusiasts seem to like to ask the customer service person staffing a Twitter feed lots of questions but the person will only be trained to answer general customer enquiries - not their fault.

It's not going down well at all, Wellingborough loses out on all this, slower average off peak time to St P compared to pre May 18 (?), inferior rolling stock coming in, lack of connectivity north, basically getting an Outer Suburban service at Inter City prices.

I’m sure it’s not going down well with some people, but a twelve coach train every half hour seems a reasonable level of service for Wellingborough.

If there was one big Bedfordshire “hub” then I’d be fine with longer distance services stopping there (in the way that Reading is a large place on the GWML, a busy junction, connecting Airport coaches).

But instead there are half a dozen EMR stations south of Leicester, with demand split between them. Luton is the biggest place, Luton Airport is probably the most important destination from Yorkshire/ East Midlands, Bedford is for connections to Thameslink and Marston Vale. But if it takes a 125mph train five minutes per stop (compared to running through at line speed), how much slower do the long distance services need to be (when Nottingham/ Sheffield already have much slower London services that places an equivalent distance along the WCML/ ECML)?

Serious point is that to the average consumer that isn't paying rapt attention to here and EMR PR, these trains will feel like a serious downgrade when they show up

It'll be a twelve coach train replacing a four coach train - maybe that'll feel like a serious downgrade for some passengers but I'd like to think I could cope okay if my TOC trebled the length of trains on my route.
 

Aictos

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If there was one big Bedfordshire “hub” then I’d be fine with longer distance services stopping there (in
It'll be a twelve coach train replacing a four coach train - maybe that'll feel like a serious downgrade for some passengers but I'd like to think I could cope okay if my TOC trebled the length of trains on my route.

Just to point out that the majority of the Corby services are 5 car Class 222s which interwork with the slow Nottingham’s and have been for a while but I see your point about the longer trains.

Point is the Corby service is being expanded from a hourly 5 car to a half hourly 12 car, even if EMR only run them as 8 cars off peak that is a still a increase in seating capacity and it’s not like they be stopping all stations to St Albans then London but rather operate the same Corby stopping pattern but with Luton Airport as a extra stop so what’s the problem?

I rather stop a hourly Nottingham and Sheffield at Luton or Parkway which doesn’t have the issue that Bedford has of crossing over to the slow lines to call there but in the bigger picture I can kinda see it wasn’t possible.
 

InTheEastMids

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I rather stop a hourly Nottingham and Sheffield at Luton or Parkway which doesn’t have the issue that Bedford has of crossing over to the slow lines to call there but in the bigger picture I can kinda see it wasn’t possible.

I agree, I think there's always room to tinker around the edges of the timetable, but as a compromise I think it's about the best that could be achieved. Any significant improvement or change is going to need direct investment in MML Capacity and/or linespeed. Or because demand patterns are disrupted by something else eg HS2, Luton airport expansion, perhaps EWR... but those are well beyond the scope of this timetable change
 

pt_mad

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If it's to be class 360s working in multiples of 3 to and from Corby, I'm guessing they will stay as they are with no connecting gangways between units? Presumably one guard would ride in the rear set?
 

Aictos

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If it's to be class 360s working in multiples of 3 to and from Corby, I'm guessing they will stay as they are with no connecting gangways between units? Presumably one guard would ride in the rear set?

Why not the middle set? Least for dispatching purposes they have a better view of train and platform unless the dispatch matrix say they have to be in the rear most unit.

Then again it depends on what the dispatch matrix is for various stations as TL only dispatch HSTs or 10 car Class 222 formations at the moment.
 
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I guess it could be that they are waiting on sorting out where the IET300s are to be based before they commit to anything north of Sheffield? So they don't want to mention Leeds much now, if it's something that they might have to bin in a couple of years (but might not)? Dunno

I thought it was announced at the time that the procurement of class 804s became known that Hitachi were going to service them at Etches Park?
 

Failed Unit

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I thought Lincoln to Grimsby was going to go hourly in the franchise spec did I get that wrong? 2 hourly doesn't seem that much of an improvement except that they will no longer be single car 153s.

It will probably still be a massive improvement. Get rid of some of those 3 Hour gaps.

I expect it will get good to connect with LNER in 1 direction only.

gut feeling they will leave Lincoln on even hours around 25 mins past hour return on even hours around 35 mins past hour.

good connection from LNER going towards Grimsby. Bad going south. But with the current Lner timetable impossible to satisfy both directions.
Hopefully more than 7 trains per day.
But it can’t be worse than currently 1435, 1722, 2002. Hopefully another train will be fitted in this period.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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It will probably still be a massive improvement. Get rid of some of those 3 Hour gaps.

I expect it will get good to connect with LNER in 1 direction only.

gut feeling they will leave Lincoln on even hours around 25 mins past hour return on even hours around 35 mins past hour.

good connection from LNER going towards Grimsby. Bad going south. But with the current Lner timetable impossible to satisfy both directions.
Hopefully more than 7 trains per day.
But it can’t be worse than currently 1435, 1722, 2002. Hopefully another train will be fitted in this period.

I think it’s from 2021 it goes hourly but yeah longer trains and getting rid of 3-hour gaps is a good start
 

Failed Unit

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I think it’s from 2021 it goes hourly but yeah longer trains and getting rid of 3-hour gaps is a good start
Yes that is my understanding. Not sure if the first and last trains must be Cleethorpes- Newark as replacements for the direct HST.

personally I would be happy with a good connection at Lincoln. But still be very happy if the first and last stayed the same.

Need to read the document again but I didn’t see Lincoln - Newark Northgate.

The plan is a hourly service (when LNER are considered)

isn’t 2021 the ECML recast as well? Lots of work for timetable planners.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Yes that is my understanding. Not sure if the first and last trains must be Cleethorpes- Newark as replacements for the direct HST.

personally I would be happy with a good connection at Lincoln. But still be very happy if the first and last stayed the same.

Need to read the document again but I didn’t see Lincoln - Newark Northgate.

The plan is a hourly service (when LNER are considered)

isn’t 2021 the ECML recast as well? Lots of work for timetable planners.

Lincoln to Newark Northgate will remain two hourly to provide an hourly service between Newark Northgate and Lincoln (With two hourly LNER service). the first and last trains going to Cleethorpes and the first and last Leicester-Grimsby trains going to Cleethorpes
 

Impey0711

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No mention of a Sunday service on the Leicester to Nottingham local stopping service?
 

Verulamius

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The EMR track access application for December 2020 has been published on the Network Rail website. The details are as expected.
 

gaillark

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Some alterations are needed to the proposals.
  • Current 1645 Nottingham HST service to St. Pancras deposits a large number of passengers getting off the train at Luton Town station. This service will need to be retained. I use it often. There will be a need for some direct through service throughout the day. Perhaps call on alternative hours at either Luton Parkway or Bedford.
  • The prospect of having to change at KETTERING and again at LEICESTER is unattractive and unviable for many passengers . One change may work with cross platform interchange but two won't. At Kettering passengers will have to walk up flights of stairs over the bridge and down again. Not very user friendly for disabled and elderly people or with prams and luggage even with a lift when it works. I can't see EMR timetabling the fast Nottingham service to call on platform 2 on the slow at Kettering northbound behind the Corby stopper for passenger convenience and P1 southbound.
  • What is despartely needed is a through train to Manchester Piccadilly from places such as Luton, Kettering, Leicester and Derby preferably direct avoiding Sheffield . Connectvity from Leicester to Manchester is very poor and there is untapped demand for such a service even if it had to reverse at Sheffield. (During the west coast route modernisation under Project Rio the direct service carried a very healthy number of through passengers).
 
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