Northern - is the bad PR unfair?

Bantamzen · 27 Nov 2019

SteveM70 said:
Why? They were complicit - DOO was a requirement in the franchise and Arriva chose to bid

Because it was damaging their image, and in the long term potentially costing them revenue. I would have thought that would have been obvious? As we should all realise by now, franchise agreements are not set in stone and can / are changed in the their lifespans. DOO was a poison chalice injected into the original specifications by a government with a particular political agenda in mind.

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SteveM70 · 27 Nov 2019

Bantamzen said:
Because it was damaging their image, and in the long term potentially costing them revenue. I would have thought that would have been obvious? As we should all realise by now, franchise agreements are not set in stone and can / are changed in the their lifespans. DOO was a poison chalice injected into the original specifications by a government with a particular political agenda in mind.

Indeed. And there’s a very strong case for arguing that the DfT acted in a cowardly way by hiding behind the successful bidder knowing they’d essentially be the public face of the argument and would take all the flak that came with it.

But it would’ve been naive in the absolute extreme for Arriva not to have foreseen this. That’s why I have zero sympathy for Arriva in this specific case - they absolutely knew what they were entering into, and they absolutely should have expected the grief that accompanied it

Bantamzen · 27 Nov 2019

SteveM70 said:
Indeed. And there’s a very strong case for arguing that the DfT acted in a cowardly way by hiding behind the successful bidder knowing they’d essentially be the public face of the argument and would take all the flak that came with it.

But it would’ve been naive in the absolute extreme for Arriva not to have foreseen this. That’s why I have zero sympathy for Arriva in this specific case - they absolutely knew what they were entering into, and they absolutely should have expected the grief that accompanied it

I can't say what the thinking would have been, perhaps they were naïve although as an established operator they would have known full well the potential for dispute around DOO. Only Arriva know for certain what it was, but one thing was for certain the government could have intervened much sooner and dropped the requirement. But an administration so deeply entrenched in it's philosophy was never going to budge easily, even if it was a relatively easy win for them.

Killingworth · 27 Nov 2019

Bantamzen said:
I can't say what the thinking would have been, perhaps they were naïve although as an established operator they would have known full well the potential for dispute around DOO. Only Arriva know for certain what it was, but one thing was for certain the government could have intervened much sooner and dropped the requirement. But an administration so deeply entrenched in it's philosophy was never going to budge easily, even if it was a relatively easy win for them.

To add to DOO, when one part of Arriva cheerily announced at the outset that they would be offering improved Sunday services it seems the HR side didn't point out that there might be a little difficulty there too! A triumph of hope over experience and another all but inevitable result.

It's over 4 years since those responsible for the tender submitted their proposals. Glaciers are melting faster than final resolution of these two issues that have seriously marred Northern's reputation.

syorksdeano · 27 Nov 2019

Speaking about Northern PR, I contacted them on 8th October about the condition of one of their trains.

My 2 year old god daughter suffered a cut finger from one of the seats on the train. The conductor when she found out was great, and said she would inform Northern but I followed that up with an email anyway.

The cut wasn't that bad and I always carry a basic first aid kit with me, and after a few plasters it was as if nothing had happened.

Here is Northern's response to that email:

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If you can't see anything in their response don't worry, because I can't see any response either. In fact they haven't bothered to even ask how she was.

Yes accidents happen which this was, and I'm not expecting anything in return other than an acknowledgement that they have checked all the seats, which judging by the state of them you only had to sneeze for them to fall apart

Djgr · 27 Nov 2019

syorksdeano said:
Speaking about Northern PR, I contacted them on 8th October about the condition of one of their trains.

My 2 year old god daughter suffered a cut finger from one of the seats on the train. The conductor when she found out was great, and said she would inform Northern but I followed that up with an email anyway.

The cut wasn't that bad and I always carry a basic first aid kit with me, and after a few plasters it was as if nothing had happened.

Here is Northern's response to that email:

If you can't see anything in their response don't worry, because I can't see any response either. In fact they haven't bothered to even ask how she was.

Yes accidents happen which this was, and I'm not expecting anything in return other than an acknowledgement that they have checked all the seats, which judging by the state of them you only had to sneeze for them to fall apart

Words I have used before. Northern are sloppy and shoddy. They are meh. They are not credible.

A mixture of we're not capable and we can't be bothered. I still say, let's get rid.

SteveM70 · 27 Nov 2019

Djgr said:
Words I have used before. Northern are sloppy and shoddy. They are meh. They are not credible.

A mixture of we're not capable and we can't be bothered. I still say, let's get rid.

But remember everyone who’s currently “doing the doing” would TUPE across to the replacement, what needs changing is the culture

Bletchleyite · 27 Nov 2019

SteveM70 said:
But remember everyone who’s currently “doing the doing” would TUPE across to the replacement, what needs changing is the culture

Which requires a senior management change - and those don't normally TUPE.

They could, and should, get rid of the contract security guards for everything other than security provision, though.

ohgoditsjames · 27 Nov 2019

Yes TPE are quite rightly getting some stick atm but their stock (or at least the 185’s) are certainly in much better condition than most of Northerns and the 185’s are always outrageously overcrowded so Northern can’t use that excuse.

ManOnATrain · 27 Nov 2019

Based on my personal experience of Northern Rail, the bad PR is totally justified.

I've had trains come off depot still absolutely manky.

I've had cancelled of 2 carriage trains trying to fit too many people on.

I could go on but I'd really rather not. The Scotrail sets are a 100% percent improvement.

js1000 · 27 Nov 2019

ManOnATrain said:
Based on my personal experience of Northern Rail, the bad PR is totally justified.

I've had trains come off depot still absolutely manky.

I think the most alarming thing about the Northern franchise aside from the timetable/punctuality is the cleanliness (or lack of) of the trains. TPE have 'train presentation' crew. When Serco-Abellio were in charge it was common to see Northern cleaning staff at Piccadilly, Lime Street, Manchester Airport etc cleaning trains for their return journey. You don't see any cleaners looking after Northern trains any more. And when you walk through practically all Northern trains at 8 o'clock in the evening it really shows. It suggests cost cutting on a severe scale. Not to mention the shiny new trains just get completely trashed as the tiny bin is almost impossible to locate.

Feel quite sorry for the staff as it's frustrating for them to be dragged from pillar to post. It's apparent that many of them know the service that is being provided is not good enough. I was on the train from Piccadilly yesterday. Noticed on the app it was cancelled but not yet announced on the train or the station. Stepped off to see what was going on and saw 4 Northern staff scratching their head all frustrated. One simply swore and called it an 'f-ing joke'. It's radical change at the top that's really needed - at Northern but also DfT, Network Rail and TfTN.

Llama · 27 Nov 2019

Embarrassing state of cleanliness on one of the 195s that came straight off Newton Heath a few days ago to work up to Leeds. That unit's only been in service for a few weeks, but even the cabs were filthy and the carpets in the saloons clearly hadn't seen any attempt at cleaning since the previous night at least, only a litter pick-up. It had been on the depot ready for service for nearly 24 hours before it came off so there was ample time to get it cleaned properly. No excuses.

northernchris · 27 Nov 2019

js1000 said:
You don't see any cleaners looking after Northern trains any more. And when you walk through practically all Northern trains at 8 o'clock in the evening it really shows. It suggests cost cutting on a severe scale. Not to mention the shiny new trains just get completely trashed as the tiny bin is almost impossible to locate.

Leeds retains the train presentation staff, see them quite often doing a litter pick on the Calder Valley services. I've noticed though that stock with tables seem to be worse for litter being left with the 195s often left in an appalling state by the end of the journey

Killingworth · 27 Nov 2019

js1000 said:
I think the most alarming thing about the Northern franchise aside from the timetable/punctuality is the cleanliness (or lack of) of the trains. TPE have 'train presentation' crew. When Serco-Abellio were in charge it was common to see Northern cleaning staff at Piccadilly, Lime Street, Manchester Airport etc cleaning trains for their return journey. You don't see any cleaners looking after Northern trains any more. And when you walk through practically all Northern trains at 8 o'clock in the evening it really shows. It suggests cost cutting on a severe scale. Not to mention the shiny new trains just get completely trashed as the tiny bin is almost impossible to locate.

Feel quite sorry for the staff as it's frustrating for them to be dragged from pillar to post. It's apparent that many of them know the service that is being provided is not good enough. I was on the train from Piccadilly yesterday. Noticed on the app it was cancelled but not yet announced on the train or the station. Stepped off to see what was going on and saw 4 Northern staff scratching their head all frustrated. One simply swore and called it an 'f-ing joke'. It's radical change at the top that's really needed - at Northern but also DfT, Network Rail and TfTN.

I was told recently that there may be only 2 cleaners at Piccadilly. Can that be true? Trains with short layovers don't have long to be cleaned but it seems there's no plan to do so.

Units stabled at Piccadilly overnight don't seem to be cleaned either, so can leave on Sunday morning as they were left on Saturday night. This one was still running on the Hope Valley like this at mid-day last Sunday. The upholstery is bad enough. There's no sign of "Proud to be Northern" displayed here.

js1000 · 27 Nov 2019

The situation on the 195s is daft. I remember the first day in service in July and I thought they looked great but my big question was "where was the bin?" I've travelled on them for work between Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Chester-Leeds and in the evening they are absolutely trashed. Litter everywhere, on tables, floors, fold-down tables. As you say I don't even think they clean them properly overnight or at the depot - it's the bare minimum of remove rubbish rather than wiping down tables and hoovering floors. Awful...

johntea · 27 Nov 2019

The seats in the photographs above look bad but I guess that is more a case of 'just get the train out on the network running services rather than having to cancel even more services to make it look nice again' more than anything, wait until the pacers are gone and they're even more tight on units...

The inconsiderate litterers on trains really annoys me but it would derail the thread far too off topic! I would be interested to see if the problem perhaps lessens a bit now they seem happier to locate bins in major stations again, doubtful on a Friday/Saturday night still I suppose!

Bletchleyite · 27 Nov 2019

johntea said:
The seats in the photographs above look bad but I guess that is more a case of 'just get the train out on the network running services rather than having to cancel even more services to make it look nice again' more than anything, wait until
the pacers are gone and they're even more tight on units...

You don't need to cancel trains to clean them. They can be cleaned during layovers, e.g. at Piccadilly, or using travelling cleaners.

sheff1 · 28 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
You don't need to cancel trains to clean them. They can be cleaned during layovers, e.g. at Piccadilly, or using travelling cleaners.

Indeed. There should be enough cleaners employed to clear rubbish from every train turning round at Piccadilly. With the Airport trains I don't know whether it would be more cost effective to use Piccadilly based cleaners shuttling up and down or have a separate cleaner base at the Airport. Either way, the only excuse for letting trains leave such major stations in the state described is when disruption reduces the turnround time to the minimum.

YorksDMU · 28 Nov 2019

I was on a 158861 working the 16.20 Scarborough to Hull service today, and the seats were dirty, with loose covers. One or two seat backs had crude repairs with pieces of tape. The carpet is best left to the imagination it’s that bad. But, to be fair, the unit kept time, and did not disgrace itself in the way 170476 did yesterday on the 15.56 from Hull to Bridlington, ex Sheffield.
That unit displayed the wrong destination, and, on reaching Cottingham, the engine of the rear DMS, in which I was travelling, cut out for about a minute, and the lights went out too. Additionally the toilets were not working either. But the guard was very good and did his best to help as much as he could. So full marks to the guard.

Trisha · 28 Nov 2019

YorksDMU said:
I was on a 158861 working the 16.20 Scarborough to Hull service today, and the seats were dirty, with loose covers. One or two seat backs had crude repairs with pieces of tape. The carpet is best left to the imagination it’s that bad. But, to be fair, the unit kept time, and did not disgrace itself in the way 170476 did yesterday on the 15.56 from Hull to Bridlington, ex Sheffield.
That unit displayed the wrong destination, and, on reaching Cottingham, the engine of the rear DMS, in which I was travelling, cut out for about a minute, and the lights went out too. Additionally the toilets were not working either. But the guard was very good and did his best to help as much as he could. So full marks to the guard.

Sometimes the paying public could help by taking their own rubbish off with them.

Tetchytyke · 28 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Which requires a senior management change - and those don't normally TUPE

They do these days.

The perpetual failures leading VTEC were rewarded for their failure by...becoming bosses at LNER. Needless to say, LNER is as bad as VTEC ever was.

So you'd expect the same to happen if Arriva did hand the keys back.

That said, the calibre of railway bosses now is pitiful. Alex Hynes- previously of Northern- has brought his own special stardust to Scotrail. If you cleared out Arriva's management, who would be any better?

Carlisle · 28 Nov 2019

Bantamzen said:
DOO was a poison chalice injected into the original specifications by a government with a particular political agenda in mind.

Irrespective of politics it’s primary reason will have been to achieve what was widely considered a long overdue modernisation of working practices alongside better value for money from a heavily subsidised industry, however it’s introduction either wasn’t thought through properly by govt/ DFT or Brexit simply took over the entire agenda,
I’m unsure which was true .

Bletchleyite · 28 Nov 2019

But you can't blame DOO for the entirety of Northern's woes - the operation is still incompetent even without any mention of it.

Bantamzen · 29 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
But you can't blame DOO for the entirety of Northern's woes - the operation is still incompetent even without any mention of it.

Nobody is blaming the entirety of Northern's woes on DOO.

SteveM70 · 29 Nov 2019

Here’s a personal view of the low level aggro that characterises using Northern.

Regardless of what performance stats say, my experience of commuting into Manchester from the Calder valley over the last few weeks has been dreadful. I generally make 8 journeys a week. The last time a train arrived at my destination actually on time was October 15th.

And the worst thing is that you get sort of institutionalised - to the point that it’s only the 30+ minute delays that you consider to be exceptional.

M!T · 30 Nov 2019

Girlfriend uses them between Bingley and Leeds a couple of times a week. There seems to be problems every time these days. Most train companies' trains reach their destination late. Northern's even depart their origin late - they can't even get that bit right! Seems to be another meltdown on Leeds-Skipton services tonight judging by a friend's post on Facebook and my subsequent investigation on Twitter. They don't reply to people on Twitter anymore and their staff don't seem to have a clue what's happening. I manage to give my girlfriend more info via Realtime Trains than she can find out from staff when one of the all too frequent meltdowns is happening. It's like they've given up!

ASharpe · 30 Nov 2019

M!T said:
Girlfriend uses them between Bingley and Leeds a couple of times a week. There seems to be problems every time these days. Most train companies' trains reach their destination late. Northern's even depart their origin late - they can't even get that bit right! Seems to be another meltdown on Leeds-Skipton services tonight judging by a friend's post on Facebook and my subsequent investigation on Twitter. They don't reply to people on Twitter anymore and their staff don't seem to have a clue what's happening. I manage to give my girlfriend more info via Realtime Trains than she can find out from staff when one of the all too frequent meltdowns is happening. It's like they've given up!

I've given up on the timetable for my morning commute Shipley to Leeds. I just turn up hoping there is space on the next train.

Even if the train from Forster Square is on time there is no telling whether it will be held to allow a non stop Skipton train in front. But you do have a better chance of a seat.

Bantamzen · 30 Nov 2019

M!T said:
Girlfriend uses them between Bingley and Leeds a couple of times a week. There seems to be problems every time these days. Most train companies' trains reach their destination late. Northern's even depart their origin late - they can't even get that bit right! Seems to be another meltdown on Leeds-Skipton services tonight judging by a friend's post on Facebook and my subsequent investigation on Twitter. They don't reply to people on Twitter anymore and their staff don't seem to have a clue what's happening. I manage to give my girlfriend more info via Realtime Trains than she can find out from staff when one of the all too frequent meltdowns is happening. It's like they've given up!

Looking at last night's RTT data, it seems there were a multitude of problems later out of Leeds for all TOCs. So it wasn't a meltdown on the Aire so much as a more general problem in the Leeds area.

td97 · 30 Nov 2019

Yes, the bad PR is unfair. Because TPE are currently an order of magnitude worse than them.

I also forgot how Northern were the only TOC affected by staffing shortages lately too, with the Manchester Mayor's favourite Metrolink network suffering all day today.

TfGM said:
Due to a shortage of staff we are currently experiencing minor delays on the Bury line.

Services travelling in both directions between Victoria and Bury are affected.

Metrolink apologises for any inconvenience this may cause.

TfGM said:
Due to a shortage of staff we are currently experiencing minor delays on the Altrincham line.

Services travelling in both directions between Deansgate-Castlefield and Altrincham are affected.

Metrolink apologises for any inconvenience this may cause.

Bletchleyite · 30 Nov 2019

Is Christmas shopping just too alluring today?

Northern - is the bad PR unfair?

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