Bletchleyite
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Uber loses licence to operate in London
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Puffing Devil
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edwin_m
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Won't help if the drivers are able to upload a mate's photo, which seems to have been the problem this time.
Uber is making huge losses and only continues to exist because investors are pumping money into it in the belief it's a tech company that will eventually come good. There are only two ways this will happen:
- Uber succeeds in delivering autonomous vehicles, all those drivers are out of a job and most of the fare goes to Silicon Valley not back into the local economy.
- Uber succeeds in driving competitors our of the market with their lower fares, then becomes a defecto monopoly and can charge what it likes. This is not only other taxis but also public transport - they are already looking to provide service in "partnership" with some smaller cities in the States.
Howardh
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My usual taxi has a phone on one of those holders and that displays the price as you go along. On their website they have the exact costs per half-mile (maybe even every 100 yards) with a minimum; however it is possible to prebook and agree a fare in advance, for example to the airport. Even then the driver has the fare indicator on, but even though it ends up a fiver more than the agreed fare, the pax pays the amount agreed.
So, presumably, the legal side is that the phone only shows an "estimate"?
So, presumably, the legal side is that the phone only shows an "estimate"?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What I really don't get is why Uber is not profitable when my local taxi company which uses an app similar to Uber charges fares about 2/3 of what Uber does and yet is profitable.
Non-London view here so places where private hires/minicabs have always been the main form of taxis and black cabs almost non-existent. No or little tension between anybody
It’s my honest opinion as someone without a car and who regularly uses private hires that Uber has actually improved safety/quality. When I was a student in Birmingham up to 2012 I had countless issues with the local firms - not turning up, erratic driving, overcharging, once even picking up multiple people en route then charging us both! Some of them used to pick up drunk students without pre-booking from the street regularly, saw it with my own eyes. Returned to visit some old friends in 2017 and sure still problems but it seemed a more accountable service with Uber.
Of course some places have good local firms, back growing up in Blackpool my grandad drove for a respectable firm and such firms are thriving launching their own apps etc.
I also use Uber in Glasgow regularly now and had nothing but decent service, vast majority of vehicles here are licensed by Glasgow City Council or Renfrewshire Council. I will also use the local firms especially for airport trips and don’t notice much of a difference, prices are roughly in line with Uber if not a little lower.
It’s my honest opinion as someone without a car and who regularly uses private hires that Uber has actually improved safety/quality. When I was a student in Birmingham up to 2012 I had countless issues with the local firms - not turning up, erratic driving, overcharging, once even picking up multiple people en route then charging us both! Some of them used to pick up drunk students without pre-booking from the street regularly, saw it with my own eyes. Returned to visit some old friends in 2017 and sure still problems but it seemed a more accountable service with Uber.
Of course some places have good local firms, back growing up in Blackpool my grandad drove for a respectable firm and such firms are thriving launching their own apps etc.
I also use Uber in Glasgow regularly now and had nothing but decent service, vast majority of vehicles here are licensed by Glasgow City Council or Renfrewshire Council. I will also use the local firms especially for airport trips and don’t notice much of a difference, prices are roughly in line with Uber if not a little lower.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
Your local taxi firm has a cubby hole under a railway bridge (typically, as someone posted above). Uber has plush offices in city centres and some very expensive overheads in California.
That seems unlikely - the concept of changing a business model to adapt to the widespread adoption of smartphones is far from unique to Uber and the minicab. It's a fairly obvious use of the technology, and would likely have happened with or without Uber - without Uber the market leader might well be a company that accepts that the law applies to them.
I've read that Uber's London operation is in fact profitable, unlike their operations pretty much everywhere else. This is why they're so protective of it, and will likely throw everything at it to overturn this decision - they need it as an example they can point to for investors and say "Look, our business model can work."
Drsatan
Established Member
The main problem with Uber (and the minicab industry as a whole) is poverty earnings for drivers. Uber may say its drivers can take home £15-20 an hour, but once all overheads are deducted, earnings are typically from £5-9 an hour, according to the sources I've read. It's therefore necessary for many to work dangerously long hours, in many cases up to 90 hours a week, just to make ends meet.
TfL's ruling does nothing to address this.
TfL's ruling does nothing to address this.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
You probably saw that on Citylab yesterday as I did. Being profitable in London and three or four other major cities may be a way to dupe the investors out of more cash but it isn't really a route to the world domination they appear to be seeking.
Indeed, and if they were properly regulated the fares would be much higher and therefore useage much lower, resulting in less abstraction from public transport and less congestion. It is also questionable whether they could then sustain having so many cars circulating around (causing said congestion) while awaiting a fare, and therefore the business model that relies on a vehicle being available quickly might just collapse.
In many parts of both the Uk and elsewhere in order to undercut the opposition Uber SUBSIDISES the fares and don't forget the driver keeps 75 percent Uber takes 25 percent whereas your average local PH company only takes 10 percent.
They also have fought nearly 1000 legal battles over the last 10 years around the world and have lost quite a high percentage which has cost them quite a bundle although they did manage to get a top high court judge in their pocket via her husband and of course a prime minister and chancellor of the exchequer and they don't come cheap
Add to that the huge sums of money being poured into autonomous cars which they thought would be up and running by now but are not anywhere near.
Then there are the costs of running the tech equipment they use for the app and the greybull spy software the big salaries paid to executives plus the settlements for the sexual harassment cases and pay offs to the many who departed the company during the turbulent recent past
They have also lost fortunes trying to get and keep their operators license in london including multiple appeals and court cases
it all adds up making money in the taxi business is very hard it is a cutthroat and competitive industry full of idiots who think they can come into the trade slash prices and hey presto they'll make millions
IT NEVER WORKS
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Fairly comprehensive demolition of Uber just appeared in London Reconnections: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2019/schrodingers-cab-firm-ubers-existential-crisis/
Uber's ride hailing service is, itself, profitable. What is not profitable is their expenditure on experimental technologies, which costs more than their profit margin. Given that they face challenges like this one, I shouldn't think they will be stopping the pursuit of more ventures any time soon.
I'm rather disappointed in this ruling. Uber's service in comparison to black cabs is neither wholly better nor wholly worse, and I would use each one for different purposes. If I know exactly where I need to be and want a decent up front fare then Uber is my go-to, but if I only have a street name then The Knowledge is exactly what I need from a cab driver. Unfortunately, the traditionalists will continue to fight change at every turn.
Puffing Devil
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I agree in part - though I would make the comparison between mini-cabs and Uber, not black cabs.
Bletchleyite
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You don't need the Knowledge for anything any more (other than possibly knowing where traffic builds up so getting a slightly quicker journey) - sat-nav will do the job quite adequately, and every Uber driver has that from inside the app though some choose not to use it.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The reason they are losing their license (subject to appeal) is that TfL has found out that drivers have been uploading their photos onto other people's accounts, and at least 14000 journeys driven by these imposters are therefore uninsured. Presumably two people can then pretend to be the same person at different times of day, which I would have thought would mean that that "person" was showing as available and indeed taking fares for many more hours than would be safe and the software didn't pick that up either. This is after a previous near-suspension when passenger complaints that would amount to criminal behavior by drivers weren't reported to the police. No doubt if black cab drivers or other minicab firms were committing similar abuses TfL would apply a similar sanction.
Whether the Uber business model is appropriate or sustainable, or indeed how good their service is, is unrelated to the current situation.
Does the mayor/TfGM have powers over private hire taxis in GM? They are licensed by the individual authorities.
It was just the Manchester City Council.
actually there is an agreement between all the councils in the GM area over cooperation and enforcement similarly in Merseyside and west yorkshire
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