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WCML disruption Preston to Lancaster 27/11/19

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Kaput

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Considering the fairly small size of this country I fail to see why anyone needs to be stuck on a broken train for any longer than 2-3 hours unless its somewhere in the middle of nowhere like the far north line.
When passengers are being stuck on a broken train for twice as long as it actually takes for said train to run the length of the line there is a major issue with the policies and planning around dealing with issues.
 
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underbank

underbank

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Ianno87 said:
4) As far as I can tell, the focus yesterday was very much on "delivering passengers to their destinations"... using the fastest means possible. Buses. Not a pleasant sedate elongated amble over Blea Moor.
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There are two issues. Firstly people trapped on the stranded trains who were stuck there 4+ hours before having to join the back of the queue for the buses. Your point is valid for the people who weren't trapped on the stranded trains. The rail industry miserably failed the poor sods who were on those trains for most of the day, who couldn't buy drinks/food because they couldn't use credit/debit cards, who couldn't use the loo, who couldn't use their phones once the charge had run out, got virtually no information other than the on board staff saying they just "didn't know" (at least they were honest) and then weren't even given priority on the buses. If any rail worker thinks that's anywhere near remotely acceptable, I'll have a glass of what you're drinking.
 
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Norm_D_Ploom

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I was on the 7.53 from Preston to E.W on Wednesday and was behind the Glasgow train that failed. We got back into Preston around 8.45, they then put us onto a Glasgow service. At around 10.15 the train crew announced that they couldn't release the breaks on the failed train. At this point I decided to sack off my meeting and rearrange my day. As I stood waiting for my train back I saw the Glasgow trains starting to leave Preston and go north, at this time there was still an Edinburgh service in the platform and I reconsidered, then that left. Thankfully I stuck with my original decision and was spared 4 hours stuck outside Preston.
 
LNW-GW Joint

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It's still not completely clear (to me, anyway) where the OHLE failure was.
It's possible it was where the WCML runs alongside the M6 for a fair way, allowing the stranded passengers a fine view of road traffic cruising happily north/south.
In which case might rescue by road have been possible and preferable?
 
Fawkes Cat

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LNW-GW Joint said:
It's still not completely clear (to me, anyway) where the OHLE failure was.
It's possible it was where the WCML runs alongside the M6 for a fair way, allowing the stranded passengers a fine view of road traffic cruising happily north/south.
In which case might rescue by road have been possible and preferable?
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So as well as closing the WCML, the M6 could be closed as well?

I don't know about the possible, but for many people this would rule out the preferable.
 
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Llama

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underbank said:
There are two issues. Firstly people trapped on the stranded trains who were stuck there 4+ hours before having to join the back of the queue for the buses. Your point is valid for the people who weren't trapped on the stranded trains. The rail industry miserably failed the poor sods who were on those trains for most of the day, who couldn't buy drinks/food because they couldn't use credit/debit cards, who couldn't use the loo, who couldn't use their phones once the charge had run out, got virtually no information other than the on board staff saying they just "didn't know" (at least they were honest) and then weren't even given priority on the buses. If any rail worker thinks that's anywhere near remotely acceptable, I'll have a glass of what you're drinking.
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It's unacceptable, embarrassing and would be avoidable but for the insular way the industry is increasingly set up - every TOC is hostile to every other TOC and NwR. Every time a stranded train situation happens, and it's happened regularly for years now, there is hand-wringing and there are vows by management-speak spouting suits that 'lessons will be learnt'. They never are, the only lessons ever learnt by this industry are how to deflect blame and reward mediocrity more effectively. Contingency route knowledge of traincrew is non-existent and not going to be increased any time soon - it's actually reducing all the time. VT at Preston used to sign the S&C as s diversion but that was deemed a luxury to be dispensed with to cut costs. The majority of traction can't assist any other type of traction without an adaptor coupler brought by a man in a van, usually two hours travelling time by road to the nearest railway access point. Suitable locos which could assist any train (with the right adaptor coupler brought on board from their stabling point and with fitters travelling on the loco) are only stabled an hour away but unfortunately they are painted the wrong colour. There is no incentive for the industry to prepare for these fairly common out of course events.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Fawkes Cat said:
So as well as closing the WCML, the M6 could be closed as well?
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Why would it require closure of the M6? Closure of one lane and the assistance of HATOs[1] would probably be necessary.

Of course it assumes it was that stretch and the farmer owning the intermediate land was amenable.

OTOH there are enough DMUs knocking around there to have got one down there from one side or the other once the OHLE was off.

[1] Sorry, Highways Agency Traffic Officers, or probably HETOs now it's called Highways England. They are basically pseudo-police who have no enforcement power but can marshall traffic, assist in clearing accidents etc, and operate under yellow rather than blue lights. They were brought in due to Police cuts, but in practice have proven a massive asset as they allow things to be sorted out without getting involved in blame etc. Sort of a bit like PCSOs of the road, but not managed by the Police but rather Highways England.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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There are long stretches between Preston and Lancaster where the M6 is just over the railway fence...
Finding a gate might be a problem, though.
 
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Bletchleyite

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LNW-GW Joint said:
There are long stretches between Preston and Lancaster where the M6 is just over the railway fence...
Finding a gate might be a problem, though.
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Some form of cutting device probably easier. But anyway, sending a DMU down from the end where the wires aren't strung across the line is probably the easiest way and could be done quickly with the right processes in place.
 
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Norm_D_Ploom

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Llama said:
. The majority of traction can't assist any other type of traction without an adaptor coupler.
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This seems very strange to me. The train manager actually announced this after the 1st train broke down and I must say I did find that strange. I appreciate that not everything was better in the days of BR but was this also the case then ?
 
underbank

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LNW-GW Joint said:
It's still not completely clear (to me, anyway) where the OHLE failure was.
It's possible it was where the WCML runs alongside the M6 for a fair way, allowing the stranded passengers a fine view of road traffic cruising happily north/south.
In which case might rescue by road have been possible and preferable?
Click to expand...

The track is also pretty close to the A6 around there too, with smaller country roads to/from the A6 running alongside the tracks many closer than the M6, some literally just over a fence, so if a roadside evacuation was done onto coaches, then probably more viable than the M6 with the traffic control problems that would entail. Was it even considered?
 
Grumpy Git

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Llama said:
It's unacceptable, embarrassing and would be avoidable but for the insular way the industry is increasingly set up - every TOC is hostile to every other TOC and NwR. Every time a stranded train situation happens, and it's happened regularly for years now, there is hand-wringing and there are vows by management-speak spouting suits that 'lessons will be learnt'. They never are, the only lessons ever learnt by this industry are how to deflect blame and reward mediocrity more effectively. Contingency route knowledge of traincrew is non-existent and not going to be increased any time soon - it's actually reducing all the time. VT at Preston used to sign the S&C as s diversion but that was deemed a luxury to be dispensed with to cut costs. The majority of traction can't assist any other type of traction without an adaptor coupler brought by a man in a van, usually two hours travelling time by road to the nearest railway access point. Suitable locos which could assist any train (with the right adaptor coupler brought on board from their stabling point and with fitters travelling on the loco) are only stabled an hour away but unfortunately they are painted the wrong colour. There is no incentive for the industry to prepare for these fairly common out of course events.
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Well said.

I attempted to say the same thing regarding the fractured nature of the UK railways earlier, (might have been a different thread though), but somebody basically accused me of being obtuse.
 
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Fleetwood Boy

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LNW-GW Joint said:
It's still not completely clear (to me, anyway) where the OHLE failure was.
It's possible it was where the WCML runs alongside the M6 for a fair way, allowing the stranded passengers a fine view of road traffic cruising happily north/south.
In which case might rescue by road have been possible and preferable?
Click to expand...

I watched very carefully from the M6 whilst on my rail replacement bus - there wasn't any point where I could see any sign of the trains
 
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randyrippley

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Fawkes Cat said:
So as well as closing the WCML, the M6 could be closed as well?

I don't know about the possible, but for many people this would rule out the preferable.
Click to expand...

The A6 parallels the railway and motorway for much of that route and may have been accessible
 
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randyrippley

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underbank said:
I don't think it's just a matter of distance, it's also a matter of alternative routes, numbers of tracks, station track layouts, etc. Some places are going to be more/less affected by an infrastructure (or train) failure than others. Using distance only is a bit of a blunt tool for a complex problem.

Crewe to Preston is only 60 miles. Carlisle to Lancaster is 70 miles. The Thunderbirds were at Crewe and Carlisle, so not really that much more than your suggested average 50 miles, but they still took far too long to be mobilised and arrive - 3 to 4 hours before they were both on site, coupled and dragging the affected trains back to Preston/Lancaster respectively. The Carlisle one seemed to get stuck at Oxenholme for quite a while as there was a stationary train in front of it.

I think yesterday (and the similar incident in Summer) shows a Thunderbird is needed at Preston. It's not just distance that matters. Where you have only 2 lines with limited crossovers and stations without passing loops (i.e. Preston and northbound), and no realistic alternative routes, scope is very limited and the longer the distance, the more chance of obstructions etc to add to the travel time. Of course, the longer the time, the more chance of more and more trains blocking the route too.
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Plenty of potential Thunderbirds in maroon paint at Carnforth...........I guess no-one thought of calling WCRC.
Several rakes of spare coaches there as well
 
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Parham Wood

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I think road side rescues should only be in extremes, although it depends on the nearness of the road and the type of access from train to road. Walking even 100m over a field in wet weather with normal shoes would not be pleasant or easy for some (infirm, elderly or with high heals). The ground will churn up after the first few, mud will be on leg clothing and damage shoes which could lead to compensation claims. The problem lies with the time it takes to move the affected trains back to a station. Obviously if trains are queued you have to move the nearest to the station first unless the front train can be moved forward from the incident area. Just assembling a rescue locomotive with crew and coupler etc. takes time. The fact that trains are not all standard braking, control and coupling adds to the problem as many have said. This is not going to be addressed quickly as many trains have many years life left, indeed will it ever! Is it possible even to move to a standard for these aspects and power for future orders. Nevertheless the railway has to look at ways of minimising recovery times, how it treats passengers on stranded trains, how services by alternative routes can be implemented even if this means ticket acceptance by other TOCs without the option to object etc.. I doubt though that there is much will to do this in the industry or government - the British disease!
 
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alangla

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Bletchleyite said:
Of course, this is another argument for bi-modes or at least having one diesel per unit to provide hotel power if not traction (or maybe traction up to 5mph to get out of trouble). If the pantograph gets ripped off, run up the diesels and at least you can have a wee and a cup of tea while you wait.
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And this appears to be what Hitachi have done with the 801. Mind you, BR fitted a diesel generator to the APT-P but the IC225 sets were built without. In cases where the OHLE is wrapped round the train, even full bi-mode capability wouldn’t stop the train being stranded for an extended time, but there should be more effort to keep hotel services running and initiate evacuations more quickly
 
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Mountain Man

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Bletchleyite said:
Well, if they hadn't got shut of the Thunderbirds...

FWIW, for this sort of reason I think Avanti should order all bi-modes and not some bi-mode, some EMU.
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And a nationalised railway under pressure will prioritise them? When it comes to how to spend limited taxpayer money I'm sure they'll be prioritised over schools and hospitals
 
londonmidland

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Is it me or has there been quite a lot of OLE related problems recently in the North West, on the WCML?

Usually it’s the ECML which has issues with the overheads.
 
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AndrewE

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underbank said:
Their 56s have had their couplers removed apparently. Wonder if they're still in existence - maybe in a pile of metal at Carnforth?
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I was told by an unbeatable source that Pendolinos were supplied with their own emergency couplings - and with a derrick to assemble on the loco to get it into position. The people who specified the coupling realised that it would be too heavy to be manoeuvred into position by the 2 drivers likely to be at the site where it was needed. I guess this option must be ignored as "too difficult" nowadays.
 
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Meerkat

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Especially considering things like this are their “fault” why don’t NR supply the Thunderbirds?
They could then compel their use to clear the line with a standard call out charge.
And if you want to run something on the line that the Thunderbirds can’t rescue then you are required to provide a solution, either on your trains or paying for Thunderbird modifications.
The hotel power/self rescue power source should also be mandatory (maybe batteries that are constantly topped up by the OHLE as per emergency escape lighting)
 
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Class 170101

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Rail Ranger said:
The incident again demonstrates the folly of Virgin not maintaining route knowledge via Blackburn, Hellifield and the Settle & Carlisle line.
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JonathanH said:
No it doesn't. They only have a limited fleet of trains that can go that way and it is quicker to go by coach than be diverted.
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There is a limited supply of road vehicles as well. There is a big stink about disability compliant road vehicles too coming along very shortly I hear. It may well be easier to have the route knowledge than to try and hire a limited (non-existent) supply of road vehicles.
 
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