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GWR Dec 19 timetable

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Noddy

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I mean in theory if they were route cleared you could; but it would be a total waste of their capabilities.

They’re high speed EMUs with onboard power generation; for long distance express services. They’re laid out for long dwell times and long periods between stops.

Despite protestations on here Cardiff - Portsmouth is a series of medium speed regional commuter services strung together to create one long distance through service with a tiny minority of passengers using it full length of the route. The linespeed rarely gets out of the 70s and it’s heavily overcrowded so needs high density seating rolling stock and large circulating areas to reduce dwell times at stations.

Yep. Ideally you’d want something like a hybrid 387, 3-car, with through corridors, 2+2 seating, 110 on electric, 100 on diesel.

I disagree about the line speed example you’ve as these hypothetical trains are also likely to be used on Cardiff-South West and Worcester-South services where there is a lot of potential 100mph running, some quite extended. Not sure about the southern section but most of Cardiff-Bath is above 70!
 
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jimm

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Yep. Ideally you’d want something like a hybrid 387, 3-car, with through corridors, 2+2 seating, 110 on electric, 100 on diesel.

I disagree about the line speed example you’ve as these hypothetical trains are also likely to be used on Cardiff-South West and Worcester-South services where there is a lot of potential 100mph running, some quite extended. Not sure about the southern section but most of Cardiff-Bath is above 70!

100mph-capable multiple-unit trains, old or new, of designs far more suited to Cardiff-Portsmouth operations (or Bristol-Gloucester-Worcester) are not exactly hard to find. The average end-to-end speed of Cardiff-Pompey trains is not much more than 40mph.
 

nw1

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On the general subject of the timetable, will Southampton to London off peak still be valid via Reading from the new timetable? Was just thinking at a good way to sample the new service on the London-Reading section would be to go to London and head for Paddington rather than Waterloo.

If so, will it be valid on IETs or just the 387 semi-fasts and TfL stoppers?
 

HowardGWR

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Despite protestations on here Cardiff - Portsmouth is a series of medium speed regional commuter services strung together to create one long distance through service with a tiny minority of passengers using it full length of the route.
And so, I imagine, it will remain as long as that attitude prevails in GWR circles. It's not how stakeholders see it.
 

30907

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On the general subject of the timetable, will Southampton to London off peak still be valid via Reading from the new timetable? Was just thinking at a good way to sample the new service on the London-Reading section would be to go to London and head for Paddington rather than Waterloo.

If so, will it be valid on IETs or just the 387 semi-fasts and TfL stoppers?
They would be challenged if they altered the routing guide! My guess is it will carry the same PAD evening restrictions as other services, so it will depend on when you travel.
 

jimm

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And so, I imagine, it will remain as long as that attitude prevails in GWR circles. It's not how stakeholders see it.

What's "in GWR circles" meant to mean? Plenty of people who are nothing to do with GWR are of the same view about this route, including the DfT - you know, the organisation that specifies the type of service provided through the franchise system.

If local worthies want to pretend it is some sort of key long-distance trunk route that has been cruelly ignored by the rail industry and the government, that's up to them.

It has never been anything of the sort. In the good old days of 1963, prior to the Beeching cuts, there were three or four trains a day between Cardiff and Portsmouth, which bypassed Temple Meads, with calls to serve Bristol being made at Stapleton Road. Plus half a dozen trains each way between Bristol and Salisbury and assorted shorter local workings along various bits of the route.

What is provided nowadays in terms of end-to-end services leaves that sort of operation completely in the shade and is hardly suggestive of a route that is hard done by.
 

Noddy

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100mph-capable multiple-unit trains, old or new, of designs far more suited to Cardiff-Portsmouth operations (or Bristol-Gloucester-Worcester) are not exactly hard to find.

So why aren’t they heading to the GWR then??!!
 

jimm

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So why aren’t they heading to the GWR then??!!

Because a whole lot of 90mph-capable Turbo units have just been cascaded to the route, that's why. With more to come in a couple of weeks once TfL takes over the London-Reading stoppers, freeing up GWR 387s to free up Turbos for Bristol.

As was pointed out above, there simply isn't much 100mph (or 90mph, come to that) track on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route - hence the 43mph average speed end to end.

Something needs to be done about the interiors of the 166s, but GWR has been trying to get that through the the thick heads at the DfT for some years now. Hopefully the next direct award agreement will finally allow GWR and Angel Trains to sort this out, with new trains then forming part of the package for whatever sort of franchise/concession/renationalised operation comes after the direct award - but let's not kid ourselves that any new trains are going to look anything like an 80x or that this is an InterCity route.
 

swt_passenger

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Because a whole lot of 90mph-capable Turbo units have just been cascaded to the route, that's why. With more to come in a couple of weeks once TfL takes over the London-Reading stoppers, freeing up GWR 387s to free up Turbos for Bristol.

As was pointed out above, there simply isn't much 100mph (or 90mph, come to that) track on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route - hence the 43mph average speed end to end.

Something needs to be done about the interiors of the 166s, but GWR has been trying to get that through the the thick heads at the DfT for some years now. Hopefully the next direct award agreement will finally allow GWR and Angel Trains to sort this out, with new trains then forming part of the package for whatever sort of franchise/concession/renationalised operation comes after the direct award - but let's not kid ourselves that any new trains are going to look anything like an 80x or that this is an InterCity route.
Could possibly justify some first class provision on the Turbos when normally 5 car though. Seems odd they have first on the north downs route, but not this one.
 

Grecian 1998

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IIRC the general linespeeds between Cardiff-Portsmouth are as follows:
Cardiff-Patchway: 95 mph with 75 mph through the Severn Tunnel
Patchway-Filton: 50 mph
Filton -Bristol TM: 75 mph
Bristol TM - Bath: 100 mph
Bath-Westbury: 70 mph with a restriction at Bradford South Jct
Westbury-Salisbury: 75 mph
Salisbury - Redbridge: 85 mph but with a 20 mph restriction just after Tunnel Jct
Redbridge-Portsmouth: 70 mph but with numerous speed restrictions as it's a sinuous route.

I could be wrong on the specifics but the linespeeds are in those regions - so it can be seen a significant majority of the line is under 90mph.
 

jimm

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Many thanks, I've already done both but there's no trace of Temple Meads to Paddington via Bristol Parkway and the much-vaunted quicker journey

So what exactly is the 09.15 Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads then? First stop Bristol Parkway and into Temple Meads in 1hr 21 minutes - 20 minutes less than the quickest current services via Bath.

Or the 12.45 Paddington to Weston-super-Mare, into Temple Meads in 1hr 19 mins, or the 14.45, 15.45 or 19.15 departures.

In the other direction there are departures from Temple Meads via Parkway at 08.53, 10.20, 10.53, 14.23, 15.23, 17.25 and 18.23, all reaching Paddington in around 1hr 20mins.

All these 'Superfast' services are operational from Monday, December 16, and are in journey planners.

As Jonathan H says, the rest will be introduced in stages next year, to give the full 4tph off-peak service.
 

Harold Hill

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So what exactly is the 09.15 Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads then? First stop Bristol Parkway and into Temple Meads in 1hr 21 minutes - 20 minutes less than the quickest current services via Bath.

Or the 12.45 Paddington to Weston-super-Mare, into Temple Meads in 1hr 19 mins, or the 14.45, 15.45 or 19.15 departures.

In the other direction there are departures from Temple Meads via Parkway at 08.53, 10.20, 10.53, 14.23, 15.23, 17.25 and 18.23, all reaching Paddington in around 1hr 20mins.

All these 'Superfast' services are operational from Monday, December 16, and are in journey planners.

As Jonathan H says, the rest will be introduced in stages next year, to give the full 4tph off-peak service.

I looked at departures around 7am imagining that some fast services would operate at peak times.
 

swt_passenger

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I looked at departures around 7am imagining that some fast services would operate at peak times.
That’s not actually been the plan, since the stakeholder brief published in 2015. In the morning peak the two Offpeak fast paths east of Parkway were to be used for an extra train from South Wales, and a third train from Bristol routed via Bath. I think that’s still the broad intention with maybe an odd exception.
 
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jimm

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I looked at departures around 7am imagining that some fast services would operate at peak times.

The extra third peak service per hour via Bath skips Reading (and Swindon in five out of six cases) - eastbound that's the 06.00, 07.00 and 08.00 off Bristol, which will reach Paddington in just under 90 minutes, so taking 10 to 15 minutes off the timings of the current fastest trains and what will be the typical journey time in future.

Westbound there are 87-minute runs on the 17.00 and 18.00 from Paddington and a 90-minute run on the 19.00.

All of which, same as the off-peak services via Parkway, can easily be found out about on journey planners.
 

Master29

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I've noticed on realtime that GWR are only using IET timings from Plymouth onwards toward London and not from Penzance from the Dec timetable. One wonders why exactly. It's only what it says on the notes at Plymouth for each individual service.
 

JonathanH

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I've noticed on realtime that GWR are only using IET timings from Plymouth onwards toward London and not from Penzance from the Dec timetable. One wonders why exactly. It's only what it says on the notes at Plymouth for each individual service.

They are shown as being pathed as 80x on diesel both sides of Plymouth - possibly just a strange feature in the data feed. Not sure too much should be read into it.
 

30907

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Something to do with the listed bridge at Steventon I would guess - IIRC a workaround has been implemented but it seems the WTT data hasn't been updated. And/or maybe it costs 1/2min compared with electric timings?
 

JN114

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Something to do with the listed bridge at Steventon I would guess - IIRC a workaround has been implemented but it seems the WTT data hasn't been updated. And/or maybe it costs 1/2min compared with electric timings?

TT had to be finalised before 110mph electric running was authorised
 

DaveHarries

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[...]the rest will be introduced in stages next year, to give the full 4tph off-peak service.
Just been looking on RealTimeTrains. Looked to se how many times "1H" occurs in the Monday to Friday schedules at Bristol Parkway:

16th December: 13
20th January: 13
17th February: 38

The diagram, for example, on RealTimeTrains for 17th February is this:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/BPW/2020-02-17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Further searching suggests that the 38x 1Hxx workings will begin 10th February 2020.

HTIOI,
Dave
 

JonathanH

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Just been looking on RealTimeTrains. Looked to se how many times "1H" occurs in the Monday to Friday schedules at Bristol Parkway:

16th December: 13
20th January: 13
17th February: 38

The diagram, for example, on RealTimeTrains for 17th February is this:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/BPW/2020-02-17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Further searching suggests that the 38x 1Hxx workings will begin 10th February 2020.

HTIOI,
Dave

Not necessarily, it is more like that is the earliest they will start. You will note that they are currently unadvertised which suggests to me that there is no commitment to operate them from 10 February but the facility is there to do so if desired.
 

PHILIPE

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Just been looking on RealTimeTrains. Looked to se how many times "1H" occurs in the Monday to Friday schedules at Bristol Parkway:

16th December: 13
20th January: 13
17th February: 38

The diagram, for example, on RealTimeTrains for 17th February is this:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/BPW/2020-02-17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Further searching suggests that the 38x 1Hxx workings will begin 10th February 2020.

HTIOI,
Dave

The link brings up the line up for Bristol Parkway. If you are highlighting certain trains those are not what diagrams.are. As you refer earlier they are train schedules.
 

Mintona

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I don’t think they’ll be running the extras this side of the May timetable change.

It seems strange that a good number are routed through the 20mph Platform 1 at Swindon rather than the 85mph Up Main, presumably not to catch up with the up Swansea train in front.
 

Noddy

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Because a whole lot of 90mph-capable Turbo units have just been cascaded to the route, that's why. With more to come in a couple of weeks once TfL takes over the London-Reading stoppers, freeing up GWR 387s to free up Turbos for Bristol.

As was pointed out above, there simply isn't much 100mph (or 90mph, come to that) track on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route - hence the 43mph average speed end to end.

Something needs to be done about the interiors of the 166s, but GWR has been trying to get that through the the thick heads at the DfT for some years now. Hopefully the next direct award agreement will finally allow GWR and Angel Trains to sort this out, with new trains then forming part of the package for whatever sort of franchise/concession/renationalised operation comes after the direct award - but let's not kid ourselves that any new trains are going to look anything like an 80x or that this is an InterCity route.

IIRC the general linespeeds between Cardiff-Portsmouth are as follows:
Cardiff-Patchway: 95 mph with 75 mph through the Severn Tunnel
Patchway-Filton: 50 mph
Filton -Bristol TM: 75 mph
Bristol TM - Bath: 100 mph
Bath-Westbury: 70 mph with a restriction at Bradford South Jct
Westbury-Salisbury: 75 mph
Salisbury - Redbridge: 85 mph but with a 20 mph restriction just after Tunnel Jct
Redbridge-Portsmouth: 70 mph but with numerous speed restrictions as it's a sinuous route.

I could be wrong on the specifics but the linespeeds are in those regions - so it can be seen a significant majority of the line is under 90mph.

Except the point is the rolling stock used on this route is/was typically the rolling stock also used on the Cardiff/Bristol-South west, Glos-Bristol onwards and Worcester-South route, all which have significant running over 75mph which was the response I made to the earlier comment. Jimm you responded saying there’s plenty of 100mph stock available (implied new or fairly modern) so why was 25-30 year old (90mph) stock cascaded (not all of which have arrived) and 40 year old HST stock put through a rebuild (not all of which have been completed) if is the case? It was money which then goes back to the original point of passengers on these routes being treated shoddily.
 

Coolzac

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Are any of the Penzance-Exeter services still operated by 150s, or have they already been eliminated by the class 255 sets?

(My question is based on the assumption that after December 15th none of these services will be operated by them)
 

PHILIPE

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Are any of the Penzance-Exeter services still operated by 150s, or have they already been eliminated by the class 255 sets?

(My question is based on the assumption that after December 15th none of these services will be operated by them)


Probably not. 158s as well as the Short HSTs are taking over
 
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