New NRCoT from 4th December

yorkie · 28 Nov 2019

A new National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) takes effect from 4th December.

I have attached a version that I have received, however I am not sure it is the final version.

The brief states there is a new Condition 28.3:

When a customer’s journey is likely to be delayed by more than 60 minutes, they will have the option of either;
a. a refund of their ticket (unused tickets only)
b. re-route via an alternative route, or method of transport, or - in some cases - overnight accommodation will be provided without extra charge
c. continuation of their journey at a later date convenient for them

However the actual wording is disappointing, and does not contain the wording I have highlighted above in bold:

Where your train is likely to be delayed for more than 60 minutes, you
may use your Ticket to make your journey at a later date subject to comparable
restrictions on your Ticket. Please refer to your Train Company’s website or
contact them directly for details on how to obtain a replacement Ticket.

Clearly there is a mismatch between the brief and the actual document, so I hope that the document is going to be re-worded before release.

RailUK Forums

gray1404 · 28 Nov 2019

I also hope this will not alao be misused whereby customers are told they must be delayed 60 minutes in order to qualify for a fee free refund.

swt_passenger · 28 Nov 2019

Is 10.2.3 correct?

Still mentions a Penalty Fare for travelling at a time when your ticket isn’t valid. Haven’t people being posting that no longer applies?

Bletchleyite · 28 Nov 2019

That's too weak. It needs to say "overnight accommodation will be provided in the event of a stranding overnight unless the TOC is unable to do so due to no such accommodation being available in the area" and define that, I'd define it as "where the passenger would be required to wait for any time period which includes the time period 0200-0500 or any part thereof unless there is a train service available within that period that can be used", or somesuch.

It's also too weak in terms of timings. If you have a ticket to travel at 2100 on a Friday, a sensible alternative might be travelling at 0600 on Saturday instead. It effectively needs to be that if a passenger is unable to travel on the day of travel due to the non-provision of service, their ticket becomes an Anytime ticket (TOC routed as before if applicable) for the following day. That way their weekend away is still possible albeit shortened a bit. If they are offered to travel at 2100 on Saturday instead that's useless.

Bletchleyite · 28 Nov 2019

The changes to condition 5 are interesting - this seems to legitimise the resale of unused whole tickets, particularly Advances, via eBay etc provided the price is capped at the face value. Surprised to see this.

(I'm making the assumption that they don't consider a ToD CTR or a name relating to that, which does not restrict that ticket to use by that passenger, as a reason not to transfer - and that they're more referring to the likes of M-tickets and special promotions which are restricted to a named individual)

yorkie · 28 Nov 2019

swt_passenger said:
Is 10.2.3 correct?

Still mentions a Penalty Fare for travelling at a time when your ticket isn’t valid. Haven’t people being posting that no longer applies?

If I understand correctly, the Penalty Fare legislation does not allow for such a charge to be made, so it's not correct.

swt_passenger · 28 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
If I understand correctly, the Penalty Fare legislation does not allow for such a charge to be made, so it's not correct.

To be honest I cannot see such a statement in the 2018 regulations. I think people have been assuming that NRCoT section 9.5 applies anywhere, and takes priority.

So, I’m still not sure about how the conditions and rules work together on this point.

[.n] · 28 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The changes to condition 5 are interesting - this seems to legitimise the resale of unused whole tickets, particularly Advances, via eBay etc provided the price is capped at the face value. Surprised to see this.

(I'm making the assumption that they don't consider a ToD CTR or a name relating to that, which does not restrict that ticket to use by that passenger, as a reason not to transfer - and that they're more referring to the likes of M-tickets and special promotions which are restricted to a named individual)

This clause still exists...

4.3. You may only buy your Ticket from a Train Company or Licensed Retailer, otherwise it will not be valid.

furlong · 28 Nov 2019

Fun! So now is it legitimate to buy up all the cheap advances you can as soon as they are released and resell them at face value on a website - with some sort of charges added on, like ebay-style P&P that invariably exceeds the true cost, so you can make a profit from the enterprise? They can hardly stop you charging for and making profit from the "services" surrounding the resale at face value!

furlong · 28 Nov 2019

So can, for example, an online ticket retailer (or a partner company) buy the cheap advances from itself when they are first issued, then later resell them at face value (plus some juicy fees) and if it ends up with any it can't resell, return them to itself and grant itself a discretionary fee-free refund? (And even if it charges a fee, well that fee just goes back to itself, doesn't it?) (Or it could 'excess' them to non-advance tickets then resell the excessed ticket when someone tries to buy a walk-up for the same journey.)

PG · 29 Nov 2019

Anyone know what the Obligations are that were deferred by the government which come into effect in UK law on 4/12/19 ?

Bletchleyite · 29 Nov 2019

[.n] said:
This clause still exists...

4.3. You may only buy your Ticket from a Train Company or Licensed Retailer, otherwise it will not be valid.

That's somewhat contradictory...

YorkC · 29 Nov 2019

Option (b) is one that needs clarification too, surely. Does this mean you can take any alternative (reasonable?) route/TOC, or that you have to have your ticket endorsed to do so? What if there is no member of staff available to do that? What if - perish the thought - the TOC just doesn't arrange any such alternative?

Cutting across all options, what does "likely" mean here? Is it just if at any point the train shows as 60+ minutes late?

Expansion of rights/options of passengers is of course welcome but I can see this leading to a lot of on-board disputes if there is either no requirement to get a ticket endorsed, or if there is nobody available to do so.

thedbdiboy · 29 Nov 2019

The changes have been made to ensure compliance with the EU Passenger Rights Obligations legislation as certain exemptions that the UK government previously had in place will be expiring. The problem has always been that GB rights under NRCoT are all generally much more comprehensive than the EUPRO but there are certain phrases in the latter where the DfT lawyers have got nervous that the provisions are not explicit. In the real world it's not going to make a jot of difference.

infobleep · 30 Nov 2019

thedbdiboy said:
The changes have been made to ensure compliance with the EU Passenger Rights Obligations legislation as certain exemptions that the UK government previously had in place will be expiring. The problem has always been that GB rights under NRCoT are all generally much more comprehensive than the EUPRO but there are certain phrases in the latter where the DfT lawyers have got nervous that the provisions are not explicit. In the real world it's not going to make a jot of difference.

So should the changes to phrases make a difference in the real world or is it just revisions to what is already done?

thedbdiboy · 30 Nov 2019

They are unlikely to make any difference to what you are already entitled to, it is more of a legal tidying exercise. Actual policy decisions that make a difference in the real world are going to need to wait for the election, Williams etc.....

Starmill · 30 Nov 2019

thedbdiboy said:
The problem has always been that GB rights under NRCoT are all generally much more comprehensive than the EUPRO

This might be true in theory but I'm not sure if it's true in practice.

For example, in this case I arrived 2 hours late. I spoke to many different members of railway staff to ask them for help with my journey and the picture was consistent: you'll need to wait. A complaint was made to the company I was originally booked to travel with, and they essentially said that I had been paid the maximum compensation and that I wasn't entitled to be assisted in any way more than what I had received. For the avoidance of doubt, in that case, I arrived more than 2 hours late at my destination, but I could have arrived on time if I had been permitted to use alternative services as a result of the significant disruption.

I would venture that the travelling public do not accept that as a reasonable policy by train companies. I considered making a referral to the Rail Ombudsman, but it's a great deal of work to do so, and there is very little chance of any positive outcomes.

To put it another way: customers are delayed for much longer than they need to be as a result of disruption to services, by decision of train company management. This happens frequently too, it isn't exceptional or unusual.

The relevant provisions of EUPRO that were not complied with on that date:

If you are delayed due to a cancelled train, meaning you would arrive at your final destination with a delay of more than 60 minutes, you have the right to:
...

transport to your final destination at the earliest opportunity (or on a date of your choosing) under comparable conditions. This includes alternative transport when the train is blocked and the service is suspended

...

assistance in the form of meals and refreshments (proportionate to the waiting time) if the delay is longer than 1 hour

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/rail/indexamp_en.htm#cancelled
I have added my bold to the first bullet point.

thedbdiboy · 30 Nov 2019

The issue with the EUPRO is that there are lots of qualifications in it to reflect various European railway administrations' attempts to avoid being forced to do things that they might not want to do.

If you think GB TOCs can be difficult in trying to re-route you when delayed, try getting it sorted in Germany for example between a DB service and that of another operator.

In the specific case quoted, the issue seems to be the unwillingness of staff and train companies on the ground to assist you as best as they could, rather than any provision in the NRCoT. The latest change strengthens a little the specifics of the existing NRCoT requirement that you have a right to be transported to your destination; but in practice I would not expect it to transform the attitude of a member of staff when you're stuck at a station trying to get agreement to use a better alternative to the one being offered - staff training and clear direction from the people in charge (currently the DfT) would go much further than tinkering with the NRCoT.

infobleep · 30 Nov 2019

thedbdiboy said:
The issue with the EUPRO is that there are lots of qualifications in it to reflect various European railway administrations' attempts to avoid being forced to do things that they might not want to do.

If you think GB TOCs can be difficult in trying to re-route you when delayed, try getting it sorted in Germany for example between a DB service and that of another operator.

In the specific case quoted, the issue seems to be the unwillingness of staff and train companies on the ground to assist you as best as they could, rather than any provision in the NRCoT. The latest change strengthens a little the specifics of the existing NRCoT requirement that you have a right to be transported to your destination; but in practice I would not expect it to transform the attitude of a member of staff when you're stuck at a station trying to get agreement to use a better alternative to the one being offered - staff training and clear direction from the people in charge (currently the DfT) would go much further than tinkering with the NRCoT.

If staff refuse to allow passengers onto a train, during delays, does this document mean passengers can ignore them and board the train? I admit at a barriered station that has closed gates it would be difficult to do. I'm not wishing to test this out in practise either.

philthetube · 1 Dec 2019

This lot needs an official web page/leaflet stating exactly what passengers rights are when trains are delayed, it should not be hidden away in a set of rules most people will never see,

island · 1 Dec 2019

furlong said:
Fun! So now is it legitimate to buy up all the cheap advances you can as soon as they are released and resell them at face value on a website - with some sort of charges added on, like ebay-style P&P that invariably exceeds the true cost, so you can make a profit from the enterprise? They can hardly stop you charging for and making profit from the "services" surrounding the resale at face value!

You won’t be able to do it on eBay itself, as (at least when I last sold something) it took in the postage prices from the Royal Mail and would not let you set a higher amount.

thedbdiboy · 1 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
If staff refuse to allow passengers onto a train, during delays, does this document mean passengers can ignore them and board the train? I admit at a barriered station that has closed gates it would be difficult to do. I'm not wishing to test this out in practise either.

Not without being willing to test the various caveats in the legislation in court if neccessary. Like you, I would not be willing to be a guinea pig in such circumstances.

Starmill · 1 Dec 2019

thedbdiboy said:
In the specific case quoted, the issue seems to be the unwillingness of staff and train companies on the ground to assist you as best as they could, rather than any provision in the NRCoT.

In this, you may be quite right.

Failed Unit · 1 Dec 2019

In case I am missing something.

let’s say I am travelling from Stevenage- Peterborough. I have a GTR only ticket. I can see the next 2 trains are cancelled. Reading this I should be able to travel on the LNER service. But what would I do if LNER didn’t accept the ticket - pay them and demand a refund from GTR?

(similar examples will exist all over UK)

Starmill · 1 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
In case I am missing something.

let’s say I am travelling from Stevenage- Peterborough. I have a GTR only ticket. I can see the next 2 trains are cancelled. Reading this I should be able to travel on the LNER service. But what would I do if LNER didn’t accept the ticket - pay them and demand a refund from GTR?

(similar examples will exist all over UK)

If you asked for permission to use the LNER service and it was not granted, you might be asked to buy a new ticket to travel on their train. Both companies might refuse to pay the bill for this*. You could complain to the Rail Ombudsman, but they might decide that the policy of the train company (in this case not to permit travel, and to ask you to sit and wait) is the correct one. If that happened, you would be left out of pocket, and your only recourse would be to make a County Court claim to recover your money.

You could get in touch with your MP if it happened, but your MP can't actually recover money for you. Things that they can do include asking questions of Ministers, or writing to train operating companies to ask them for a statement of their policy. They may agree to support your complaint as a matter of customer service - which is something that you'd best discuss with them. I doubt their office would agree to be involved in any form of legal action. Perhaps @HouseOfCommons have a few points they could add to this.

*If your GTR ticket were unused, you could claim a refund for that ticket from the retailer, whoever that might be, because the train you should have been on was cancelled. However, if the LNER ticket you had to buy to continue your journey was more expensive, you would be out of pocket by the difference.

Intermodal · 1 Dec 2019

Starmill said:
Perhaps @HouseOfCommons have a few points they could add to this.

I admire your extremely wishful thinking!

Failed Unit · 1 Dec 2019

Starmill said:
If you asked for permission to use the LNER service and it was not granted, you might be asked to buy a new ticket to travel on their train. Both companies might refuse to pay the bill for this*. You could complain to the Rail Ombudsman, but they might decide that the policy of the train company (in this case not to permit travel, and to ask you to sit and wait) is the correct one. If that happened, you would be left out of pocket, and your only recourse would be to make a County Court claim to recover your money.

You could get in touch with your MP if it happened, but your MP can't actually recover money for you. Things that they can do include asking questions of Ministers, or writing to train operating companies to ask them for a statement of their policy. They may agree to support your complaint as a matter of customer service - which is something that you'd best discuss with them. I doubt their office would agree to be involved in any form of legal action. Perhaps @HouseOfCommons have a few points they could add to this.

*If your GTR ticket were unused, you could claim a refund for that ticket from the retailer, whoever that might be, because the train you should have been on was cancelled. However, if the LNER ticket you had to buy to continue your journey was more expensive, you would be out of pocket by the difference.

Thanks, all very risky,

I must admit I have had significant delays in the past for this reason when travelling on AP tickets even with the same operator. One example was I was booked on the 1752 LNER service from York to Edinburgh - It was shown as having a long delay - "Delayed" to be specific. However the previous service was at York and on time. (1739 LNER to Glasgow) I asked the platform staff if I could use it to avoid missing my connection in Edinburgh - Answer No. Result 120 minute delay repay claim. (as the 1752 turned up 90 minutes) late. Hopefully at least these changes will let me use the earlier train as in this case it was the same operator, altough I can see why inter-operator tickets are challeging. But as you say I haven't use the portion of the ticket for "GTR" only so a can refund and buy an inter-available ticket. Not desirable but better than a kick in the teeth.

Starmill · 1 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
I must admit I have had significant delays in the past for this reason when travelling on AP tickets even with the same operator. One example was I was booked on the 1752 LNER service from York to Edinburgh - It was shown as having a long delay - "Delayed" to be specific. However the previous service was at York and on time. (1739 LNER to Glasgow) I asked the platform staff if I could use it to avoid missing my connection in Edinburgh - Answer No. Result 120 minute delay repay claim.

I have experienced comparable circumstances on many occasions, including, as you highlight, ones where an Advance ticket is involved and the operator does not permit the use of one of their own alternative trains to minimise delays. They may or may not have good reasons for doing so, but there can be no question that, as you point out, if that is what they choose to do, they end up returning significant sums of money to passengers in compensation for the delay. Even if they do have a good reason, for example because the alternative train has very few available seats on it, it doesn't really send out the right message to consumers.

Hadders · 1 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
In case I am missing something.

let’s say I am travelling from Stevenage- Peterborough. I have a GTR only ticket. I can see the next 2 trains are cancelled. Reading this I should be able to travel on the LNER service. But what would I do if LNER didn’t accept the ticket - pay them and demand a refund from GTR?

(similar examples will exist all over UK)

In this specific case I would simply board the LNER train. In the unlikely event of a ticket check between SVG and PBO I would explain the situation to the ticket checker and most of the time I would expect the ticket would be accepted. If they took offence to the ticket presented I would pay what they asked, and make notes of what was said, the exact train I was on, what trains were cancelled and the name of the member of staff so that I could follow it up with customer relations.

In the event that this proved fruitless I would then escalate as per @Starmill 's post above.

Starmill · 1 Dec 2019

Hadders said:
In this specific case I would simply board the LNER train. In the unlikely event of a ticket check between SVG and PBO I would explain the situation to the ticket checker and most of the time I would expect the ticket would be accepted. If they took offence to the ticket presented I would pay what they asked, and make notes of what was said, the exact train I was on, what trains were cancelled and the name of the member of staff so that I could follow it up with customer relations.

The problem with this is that, in the case of at least a few train operators, they might ask for your details rather than asking you for money. They may well then send your case to Transport Investigations Limited (or some other company with a poor reputation) and leave you to defend a criminal prosecution, with all of the costs that entails. While I would be very surprised if LNER chose to do that, we've seen cases where people who were definitely correct have been reported for prosecution elsewhere. Other train companies might insist on the issuing of a Penalty Fare, which is a greater amount to have to contest.

For this reason, it's unlikely I would get on the train.

New NRCoT from 4th December

Forum Staff

Attachments

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Forum Staff

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member