WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion

Bletchleyite · 28 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
Listening to it for five hours is draining Vs the silence of an unpowered coach.

A ride in a Mk3 is not silent - plenty of rail noise, rattles and noise from the inevitably left-open droplights, not to mention an almighty bang and visible distortion of the bodyside when another one passed at speed.

The Mk3 has one thing going for it, and that is that it is not a Mk4.

Sorry, but to me the 80x beats any Mk3. Let down by the seats, but you could fit better ones just as you could put Fainsa Sophias in a Mk3 (though even they would be an improvement on the awful IC70).

RailUK Forums

GrimShady · 28 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
A ride in a Mk3 is not silent - plenty of rail noise, rattles and noise from the inevitably left-open droplights, not to mention an almighty bang and visible distortion of the bodyside when another one passed at speed.

The Mk3 has one thing going for it, and that is that it is not a Mk4.

Not on the Mk3s I travel on.

Sorry, but to me the 80x beats any Mk3. Let down by the seats, but you could fit better ones just as you could put Fainsa Sophias in a Mk3 (though even they would be an improvement on the awful IC70).

Bletchleyite said:
A ride in a Mk3 is not silent - plenty of rail noise, rattles and noise from the inevitably left-open droplights, not to mention an almighty bang and visible distortion of the bodyside when another one passed at speed.

The Mk3 has one thing going for it, and that is that it is not a Mk4.

Sorry, but to me the 80x beats any Mk3. Let down by the seats, but you could fit better ones just as you could put Fainsa Sophias in a Mk3 (though even they would be an improvement on the awful IC70).

Your entirely right. You could fit Fainsa seats to the MK3 which would drastically lower it's suitability. It will still have better lights, luggage space. The only noise of the Mk3 that's slightly intrusive is the gangway squeek, which doesn't exist on MkIV.

The ride on the modern MK3 is especially bouncy I would agree. The 800 is worse.

pt_mad · 28 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
Agreed. There's nothing particularly special or good about them. Just another generation of sub standard trains.

If 80x are sub standard then what are and were the Voyagers?

coradiafan2000 said:
I wouldn't say sub standard. My only real issues with them are the seats and the harshness of the lighting. My main problem is that too many people are ordering them, and it'll get boring seeing them everywhere.

To be fair though there were lots of HSTs introduced by BR and they still became a classic in the end.

coradiafan2000 · 28 Nov 2019

pt_mad said:
If 80x are sub standard then what are and were the Voyagers?

To be fair though there were lots of HSTs introduced by BR and they still became a classic in the end.

True, but they never worked Transpennine services, who knows how many more TOCs will order them.

And I like Voyagers, although people tend to disagree with me on that.

GrimShady · 28 Nov 2019

pt_mad said:
If 80x are sub standard then what are and were the Voyagers?

Another miserable attempt at a passenger train.

pt_mad · 28 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
True, but they never worked Transpennine services, who knows how many more TOCs will order them.

And I like Voyagers, although people tend to disagree with me on that.

There's some sense in a wider uniformed high speed (125) fleet. The railway often suffers a lot of criticism regards fragmentation, having stock available to be moved around between regions and operators over the next decades seems to make sense, as well as engineers becoming experts about how to mend this stock at lots of places across Britain
Re Voyagers though I think it's be challenging to argue that they are more comfortable, more modern, or more suitable than any class 80x tbh. The 80x saloon shell if you ripped everything out ain't a mile off what a MK3 coach looked like. Nothing much wrong with luggage racks and interior trim so it all comes down to seat preference, which is mostly didcated by safety standards for new built high speed trains. Better seats may come later. Finally ride quality 220/1 Vs 80x well the voyagers do a lot of rattling and vibration!

coradiafan2000 · 28 Nov 2019

pt_mad said:
There's some sense in a wider uniformed high speed (125) fleet. The railway often suffers a lot of criticism regards fragmentation, having stock available to be moved around between regions and operators over the next decades seems to make sense, as well as engineers becoming experts about how to mend this stock at lots of places across Britain
Re Voyagers though I think it's be challenging to argue that they are more comfortable, more modern, or more suitable than any class 80x tbh. The 80x saloon shell if you ripped everything out ain't a mile off what a MK3 coach looked like. Nothing much wrong with luggage racks and interior trim so it all comes down to seat preference, which is mostly didcated by safety standards for new built high speed trains. Better seats may come later. Finally ride quality 220/1 Vs 80x well the voyagers do a lot of rattling and vibration!

I'll admit that me not wanting too many 80xs is more from an enthusiast's point of view. And I'm not trying to say Voyagers are more modern, they obviously aren't considering they are nearly 20 years old! It's just, again, from an enthusiast's point of view I've always had a soft spot for them.

BucksBones · 29 Nov 2019

pt_mad said:
The 80x saloon shell if you ripped everything out ain't a mile off what a MK3 coach looked like. Nothing much wrong with luggage racks and interior trim so it all comes down to seat preference,

Absolutely. I hate the seats as much as anyone but the 80x's are fundamentally good trains IMHO, especially compared to other UK intercity rolling stock after the mk4s.

ashkeba · 29 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
You're right, I'd forgotten about those. Are the 745s capable of 125mph and limited to 100? Or are the 745s only capable of 100 but a 125mph capable version could be made?

I think 745s are only capable of 100 because of only 4 power bogies on 12 coaches, but I think a 125mph capable version could be made with 6 powered, based on the Nordic ones making 125 from 3 powered on 5 or 6.

F Great Eastern · 29 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
I wouldn't say sub standard. My only real issues with them are the seats and the harshness of the lighting. My main problem is that too many people are ordering them, and it'll get boring seeing them everywhere.

They're just pretty basic compared to the better operators on the continent's flagship intercity trains.

Bletchleyite · 29 Nov 2019

GrimShady said:
luggage space

Rubbish. The overhead racks on the 80x are the largest I have ever seen on any UK train other than possibly the CAF classes 195/331. The Mk3 ones are small in comparison.

The coach-end ones - well, you can fit those to an 80x too, and LNER are doing.

G_A_C_C_C · 29 Nov 2019

What's wrong with ordering more 80x's? They have one major advantage over almost every new train introduced recently - they work! Ok the seats, the lighting, the luggage space, the layout, the inability to withstanding being hit by a HST etc etc are all negatives...but they're now working. The only recent 'new' trains to go relatively on time into service were the 387s and the 707s. And, as the Electrostars where at the end of their 20 year build and the 707s are just a cut down 700, it's arguable if they were really 'new'. Every other new build train has been delayed, many over a year late. How can any TOC justify ordering new build trains and risk delays when there's reasonably good, working example?...not to mention a growing market of drivers already trained up ready to be plundered.

Bletchleyite · 29 Nov 2019

G_A_C_C_C said:
What's wrong with ordering more 80x's?

Not a lot, which is why that's what they will do. I'd put at least 25p on it.

The only other possibility I can see is CAF (Class 397) for the EMUs, but there's a big benefit of having them all the same even if some happen not to have diesel engines underneath.

Chris217 · 29 Nov 2019

Voyagers!
The toy trains that replaced the real ones.

I quite like the 800s tbh,but the seats could have been a lot better.
Although I only ever really travel on them from Cardiff to London a couple of times a year.
I wonder if the TPE 802s are any better.
I've yet to sample one.
They look the part though.

The mk3s were fine I thought.
Much more comfort than the Pendalino.
The good thing about the Pendo tho is they are fast.
Shame about the smelly bogs tho!

Rhydgaled · 29 Nov 2019

pt_mad said:
If 80x are sub standard then what are and were the Voyagers?

What Voyagers are is too short; they are also badly fitted out and far too diesel. 80x are badly fitted out, aesthetically compromised by recessed doors and often too short. A 9-car electric Voyager/Meridian would be a better product than an 80x in my opinion, because the doors on the 80x which don't give the right 'sleek intercity' vibe.

G_A_C_C_C said:
What's wrong with ordering more 80x's?

This is second hand info from one of the TPE topics so I may be remembering wrong, but apparently Hitachi want silly money to put any seats in other than the unsuitable Sophias found on existing 80x. That's what's wrong with ordering more. Well, that and the lack of plug doors; shame nobody ordering 80x has followed ScotRail's lead (385s) and insisted on plug doors. Also, after the WCML order we are discussing, you can add another thing that will be wrong with ordering more 80x; we don't need any more 125mph bi-modes. We need electrification of the intercity routes that currently have / are getting bi-modes, which means anyone else who needs 125mph bi-modes can use 80x cascaded from those routes once they are wired.

eisenach · 29 Nov 2019

BucksBones said:
Absolutely. I hate the seats as much as anyone but the 80x's are fundamentally good trains IMHO, especially compared to other UK intercity rolling stock after the mk4s.

I should imagine that for the ordinary passenger, the most important thing (apart from the train turning up!) is first to get a seat, and then for that to be reasonably comfortable in a "cosy" environment.
Apart from the first (plenty of seats), my journey from Hereford to Oxford and back on a GWR 80x service last Saturday failed on all the others. My back's usually ok, but by Evesham I was having serious problems. The lighting is harsh and the PIS and reservation systems weren't working. The return service had working PIS but paper seat reservations. It was a pleasure to board a newly refurbished, inside and out, TfW 175 for the hop to Leominster.

BucksBones · 29 Nov 2019

eisenach said:
I should imagine that for the ordinary passenger, the most important thing (apart from the train turning up!) is first to get a seat, and then for that to be reasonably comfortable in a "cosy" environment.
Apart from the first (plenty of seats), my journey from Hereford to Oxford and back on a GWR 80x service last Saturday failed on all the others. My back's usually ok, but by Evesham I was having serious problems. The lighting is harsh and the PIS and reservation systems weren't working. The return service had working PIS but paper seat reservations. It was a pleasure to board a newly refurbished, inside and out, TfW 175 for the hop to Leominster.

Sorry but I still think it's just the seats; if you were more comfortable in your seat I bet you wouldn't have been as cross with the other issues...?

Reservations & PIS will clearly be sorted in time.

Lighting.....well it's just lighting isn't it? I think it's better than the FGW Mk 3 refurb lighting but bulbs can always be changed. I still say they're good units.

gingertom · 29 Nov 2019

coradiafan2000 said:
You're right, I'd forgotten about those. Are the 745s capable of 125mph and limited to 100? Or are the 745s only capable of 100 but a 125mph capable version could be made?

there are 125mph Flirt options available. They are already in use on the continent. I'm sure Stadler would come up with a suitable package- if the price was right.

EE Andy b1 · 29 Nov 2019

I've said this before but colour and lighting can make a big difference to the interior of an Intercity train especially. There a similar product that GWR and LNER have, i've been on both TOCs Class 80x versions a few times now but much prefer the LNER interior. It's far from perfect but with the seat coverings and the warm reds, less harsh lighting, it's just a lot more acceptable to me than the very drab GWR interior with strange green bits that just don't look right, it just feels cold and uncomfortable and that it what i perceive.
Still not been on TPEs yet so can't judge there interior yet.

It needs to be right for the West Coast, so if these are the units going to be ordered then we want a descent interior with comfortable seats and legroom, which 80xs normally have, adjustable lighting would be nice for day, night. I agree over the exterior doors they should be plug type, they waste less interior space and do look far better externally, if that matters to people.

Bletchleyite · 29 Nov 2019

Rhydgaled said:
What Voyagers are is too short; they are also badly fitted out and far too diesel. 80x are badly fitted out, aesthetically compromised by recessed doors and often too short. A 9-car electric Voyager/Meridian would be a better product than an 80x in my opinion, because the doors on the 80x which don't give the right 'sleek intercity' vibe.

80x look and feel like Japanese high speed kit, which isn't a bad thing. Japan doesn't do plug doors. There's also something about the longer vehicles that makes them look like they mean business.

This is second hand info from one of the TPE topics so I may be remembering wrong, but apparently Hitachi want silly money to put any seats in other than the unsuitable Sophias found on existing 80x

Can't the TOC just order an empty tube and put their own in, then?

I thought the actual issue was that there is no other seat presently certified for use at 125mph in the UK in new rolling stock, which is why the TPE new stock all has them too, and the GA FLIRTs and Northern CAF units don't as they are 100/110mph units so a wider choice is available. A TOC could pay to certify a different seat but they don't want to spend the money. The Sophia is also a cheap seat compared with the FISA LEAN or the Grammer IC3000 (both very good seats; the former is near identical to the Grammer E3000 "Desiro seat" and SWR think it's good enough for 1st) - I think that may be the reason Northern didn't go with the former and went for cheaper ironing boards.

Bletchleyite · 29 Nov 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
I've said this before but colour and lighting can make a big difference to the interior of an Intercity train especially. There a similar product that GWR and LNER have, i've been on both TOCs Class 80x versions a few times now but much prefer the LNER interior. It's far from perfect but with the seat coverings and the warm reds, less harsh lighting, it's just a lot more acceptable to me than the very drab GWR interior with strange green bits that just don't look right, it just feels cold and uncomfortable and that it what i perceive.

Yes, I agree, the LNER interior is nicer. There's just too much grey in the GWR colour scheme, and the lime green stripe reminds me of a 1990s bus interior. The actual seats and layout thereof are of course the same, though I do actually find the "supporting bar" issue less pronounced on moquette versions than flat cloth despite everything else being the same, to the point I thought the moquette version had a new base cushion (apparently they don't).

Still not been on TPEs yet so can't judge there interior yet.

I'll hopefully get a go tomorrow, but I'm thinking the dark blue will be a classy look.

It needs to be right for the West Coast, so if these are the units going to be ordered then we want a descent interior with comfortable seats and legroom, which 80xs normally have, adjustable lighting would be nice for day, night. I agree over the exterior doors they should be plug type, they waste less interior space and do look far better externally, if that matters to people.

It would be nice to see something imaginative done with the lighting as per airlines - it's LED so this should not be difficult. No great need for plug doors, just put luggage racks in all 4 of the "blank wall" bits and that should be about the right level of luggage provision. I will appreciate the legroom (if not the seat base cushion) and the windows are a reasonable size.

LNW-GW Joint · 29 Nov 2019

Avanti shouldn't be as constrained with an AT300 order as were GWR/LNER/TPE.
There isn't the shadow of the IEP deal hanging round it.
I guess it all depends what deal First Group has with Hitachi, and whether the WC units are just more units called off an existing framework contract, or a new contract entirely.

irish_rail · 30 Nov 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
I've said this before but colour and lighting can make a big difference to the interior of an Intercity train especially. There a similar product that GWR and LNER have, i've been on both TOCs Class 80x versions a few times now but much prefer the LNER interior. It's far from perfect but with the seat coverings and the warm reds, less harsh lighting, it's just a lot more acceptable to me than the very drab GWR interior with strange green bits that just don't look right, it just feels cold and uncomfortable and that it what i perceive.
Still not been on TPEs yet so can't judge there interior yet.

It needs to be right for the West Coast, so if these are the units going to be ordered then we want a descent interior with comfortable seats and legroom, which 80xs normally have, adjustable lighting would be nice for day, night. I agree over the exterior doors they should be plug type, they waste less interior space and do look far better externally, if that matters to people.

I'd of thought it more likely west coast will get some of GWRs 5 car 802s and some new built 9 car 802s head to GWR. Least that's what I would hope!! Seems crazy the longest distance route in the country (after inverness) gets the worst of the 80x fleet!

EE Andy b1 · 30 Nov 2019

Oh I do hope not. GWRs are awful. They would need.a full interior refit at least.

I'm still hoping it's not Hitachi! But not very hopeful.

irish_rail · 30 Nov 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
Oh I do hope not. GWRs are awful. They would need.a full interior refit at least.

I'm still hoping it's not Hitachi! But not very hopeful.

Why would they? If they are good enough for first groups operation on London to Penzance, why would London to Holyhead etc be a special case? I'm sorry but west coast's passengers are not a breed apart. Like everyone else on the modern day railway they will be treated with the same contempt as everybody else .

LNW-GW Joint · 30 Nov 2019

irish_rail said:
Why would they? If they are good enough for first groups operation on London to Penzance, why would London to Holyhead etc be a special case? I'm sorry but west coast's passengers are not a breed apart. Like everyone else on the modern day railway they will be treated with the same contempt as everybody else .

First Group are just at the beginning of negotiating an extension/direct award for GWR, and haven't yet completed their rollout of their IEP and 802 fleets.
Any increase in capacity on GWR would need DfT approval, who won't want costs to go up and lessen the premium.
West Coast is not desperate for a change of stock, so I would expect the two contracts to play out independently.
First Group also has to deliver 802s for Hull Trains and the Edinburgh open access service.
West Coast also has another shareholder whose views matter - it's not a First Group free for all.

jw · 30 Nov 2019

Can anyone clarify which wholly electric services which are currently operated by Voyagers will move to the new EMUs?

I wonder if they will simply order 5 car EMUs or take the opportunity for 'full length' units to maximise capacity.

I'm assuming the bi-modes will be short units to allow portion working along the North Wales Coast line.

LNW-GW Joint · 30 Nov 2019

jw said:
Can anyone clarify which wholly electric services which are currently operated by Voyagers will move to the new EMUs?
I wonder if they will simply order 5 car EMUs or take the opportunity for 'full length' units to maximise capacity.
I'm assuming the bi-modes will be short units to allow portion working along the North Wales Coast line.

Voyagers work services to Shrewsbury and Blackpool as well as some Euston-Birmingham-Scotland services, as well as Chester/North Wales.
Some of these services interwork, eg the early Blackpool joins with the early Holyhead at Crewe, and at least one of the Shrewsbury workings comes off a Scotland service at Wolverhampton.
Some of the Birmingham diagrams are to get Voyagers to/from Central Rivers depot overnight.
There are about 9 on Chester/Holyhead and another 9 on the rest, plus a couple of spares.

Blackpool is difficult because Pendolinos (9 or 11-car) can't call at Kirkham or Poulton, which is why there is one Voyager service left despite the line now being wired.
23 new trains (10 EMUs, 13 bi-modes) to replace 20 Voyagers isn't much of an uplift.
They are also posted to serve Liverpool South Parkway's short platforms.
It all points to 5-car trains for portion working, which also allows stops at short platforms.
It would be no different to today's Voyager operation really, with some local extensions.
But maybe 5 EMU units or so could be 9/10-car for the Scotland workings which is where capacity is most needed.
Depending on the manufacturer, the location of the maintenance base will have an impact, just as Central Rivers does for the Voyagers.
Hitachi have no suitable WCML base yet, and CAF is a bit of a jumble for both TPE and Northern.

Energy · 30 Nov 2019

I doubt they will be Hitachi, they are meant to be delivered in 2022, Hitachi couldn't make more units for TPE and they are now booked out for EMR, there is a chance they could fit in the 13 bimode units but I doubt First Group will want seperate fleets for the new trains. They would want the same product just open being bimode. I doubt Hitachi can fit in 23 units...

irish_rail · 30 Nov 2019

Energy said:
I doubt they will be Hitachi, they are meant to be delivered in 2022, Hitachi couldn't make more units for TPE and they are now booked out for EMR, there is a chance they could fit in the 13 bimode units but I doubt First Group will want seperate fleets for the new trains. They would want the same product just open being bimode. I doubt Hitachi can fit in 23 units...

Ok would u like to place a bet on that??? cos it certainly is gonna be Hitachi.. ......

WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member