by the sounds of it
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Man electrocuted and burned at Birmingham new street
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richieb1971
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Did he go up or did the cables come down? Bizarre accident if you ask me.
I hope whomever it is recovers, prayers to the family.
I hope whomever it is recovers, prayers to the family.
Although not impossible, it’s pretty difficult to get an electric shock from falling OLE equipment. Not to say extremely unlucky. Almost certainly the individual will have climbed up somehow.
thecrofter
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Good to see that the BBC article correctly refrained from saying "electrocuted". The word electrocution being derived from electricity and execution would imply the person died. In this case, the injured party has no doubt suffered life changing injuries from the severe burns one would get from coming into contact with 25,000 Volts.
lammergeier
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Reported elsewhere (unconfirmed I hasten to add) that said individual climbed on top of a 323
Similar incident at Manchester Piccadilly two years to the day strangely. Drunk passenger decided to jump from the footbridge onto the top of a Pendolino on a Friday evening. Although slightly confused why it would happen at 8 o'clock in the morning.
duffield
Established Member
This isn't actually correct, despite the word's origin, most highly respected dictionaries including the OED and Merriam-Webster, define 'electrocute' as '*injure* or kill with electricity', and it has been used in that sense since very shortly after the word was first coined. We were discussing this exact thing on the Ars Technica website a couple of days ago (as part of the myth that Edison electrocuted an elephant, when there is no evidence he had any personal involvement).
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All night bender?
Raul_Duke
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Chris999999
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Not at all. We all regularly come in contact with far higher voltages than 25,000 volts - every time we get we get a shock from static electricity for example, or remember Van de Graaf generators from schools and museums? The volts give the jolts, but it is the current that does the damage.
But high voltages from static charges have either very high series resistance which limits the current, or if the charge has a capacitive content, will usually result in a fairly short duration current pulse. Thus the total energy dissipated in the body is relatively low.
thecrofter
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Given that Birmigham New Street station is fed from a 132/25 kV supply just 1 mile away (Winson Green) with a prospective short circuit fault current nigh on the supply maximum of 6,000A I'd say that's more than a tickle!
pdeaves
Established Member
But it's still the current flow that kills, even if it's only small (fractions of amps), which is what the poster was saying.
Ambient Sheep
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"It's volts that jolts but mill[iamp]s that kills."
hooverboy
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true.
in the case of AC the frequency also plays a part, 20-100hz is the danger zone for sending the heart into fibrilation.
a direct contact across the heart of about 20mA or so is sufficient to kill if the frequency and duration is right.
same applies to the head-being the body's control system.
high enough voltages/low enough body or contact resistance just make that path easier.
it also depends where you have entry and exit points.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
Do we have to have the debate about volts/amps/frequency/resistance/what is the right word/what killls? It hardly matters in these circumstances.
It is FAR from bizarre and happens on a sadly regular basis. I bet this person climbed onto a train.
It is FAR from bizarre and happens on a sadly regular basis. I bet this person climbed onto a train.
Bletchleyite
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It was stated upthread that they indeed did.
DarloRich
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yes - i hadn't read that when posting.
Raul_Duke
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It’s like you’ve never even been on Railforums.
I haven't seen anything confirmed in the news that he climbed on top of a train, just that he "came in contact with the overhead wire". Obviously climbing onto a train is probably the easiest way to do that but maybe he found a gantry that was climbable or fell off something.
Anyway this report includes witnesses describing how he ran up the escalator with flames seemingly having started around his legs and moved upwards.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/new-street-station-fire-ambulance-17344946
Anyway this report includes witnesses describing how he ran up the escalator with flames seemingly having started around his legs and moved upwards.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/new-street-station-fire-ambulance-17344946
Kingspanner
Member
Given DarloRich's words, some may not want to read what follows which is about the mechanism of electric shock.
My intention is to inform and warn, not exploit.
A more palatable document is here https://www.theiet.org/media/1457/hsb68.pdf
In a previous life I attended two high voltage accidents as an investigator. One was on the railway at Sunderland Bridge when a contractor working on an overbridge accidentally dropped the cable of an electric drill over the parapet and into contact with the catenary. He suffered life changing injuries from a deposition of energy so severe that the coins in his trouser pocket were fused together. The other was a farmer who made contact with an overhead cable with the forks of a tractor. He had to be rescued from the burning cab of the vehicle by Firefighters. (I did also attend a near miss when a construction worker put a spade through a buried high voltage cable. luckily the blade was vaporised but he was largely unhurt).
Later I put my Physics degree to some use and started teaching about electric shock.
Assuming that you do not suffer an immediate cardiac arrest (caused by electrical interference with the heart) and as others have pointed out, any related fall, your problems are just beginning. An immediate one is clots forming in major vessels of the limbs. This will often end in amputation.
Later of course there is the risk from burns - fluid loss and infection, and the toxicity to the kidneys from by-products of the burned tissue getting into the bloodstream. Neurological damage originates from the aforementioned clots causing stroke and also nerves being heated by conducting the current.
In short, survival chances with high voltage are low and the prognosis poor for those who do. Despite the obvious potential, electric shock deaths (due to all voltages) are relatively few, about 30 or so per year in the UK. You are far more at risk from electrically started fires.
My intention is to inform and warn, not exploit.
A more palatable document is here https://www.theiet.org/media/1457/hsb68.pdf
In a previous life I attended two high voltage accidents as an investigator. One was on the railway at Sunderland Bridge when a contractor working on an overbridge accidentally dropped the cable of an electric drill over the parapet and into contact with the catenary. He suffered life changing injuries from a deposition of energy so severe that the coins in his trouser pocket were fused together. The other was a farmer who made contact with an overhead cable with the forks of a tractor. He had to be rescued from the burning cab of the vehicle by Firefighters. (I did also attend a near miss when a construction worker put a spade through a buried high voltage cable. luckily the blade was vaporised but he was largely unhurt).
Later I put my Physics degree to some use and started teaching about electric shock.
Assuming that you do not suffer an immediate cardiac arrest (caused by electrical interference with the heart) and as others have pointed out, any related fall, your problems are just beginning. An immediate one is clots forming in major vessels of the limbs. This will often end in amputation.
Later of course there is the risk from burns - fluid loss and infection, and the toxicity to the kidneys from by-products of the burned tissue getting into the bloodstream. Neurological damage originates from the aforementioned clots causing stroke and also nerves being heated by conducting the current.
In short, survival chances with high voltage are low and the prognosis poor for those who do. Despite the obvious potential, electric shock deaths (due to all voltages) are relatively few, about 30 or so per year in the UK. You are far more at risk from electrically started fires.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
it is not the information that annoys me as that is useful but the need to argue about it on a thread dealing with some poor guy who is in critical condition. It hardly matters whether the right word is used to describe how that guy came to be hurt. Much more important is that he has been very badly and very hideously injured.
BTW - I worked on building sites in the past and saw a man badly injured by electricity. It was horrible.
Sprinter107
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That's a very informative post, and I thank you for posting it. I suppose it's the same for DC shocks ?
Kingspanner
Member
Actually no, as posted upthread AC is more likely to cause fibrillation, at least at mains type voltages. But in any case, typical body resistance is a few hundred ohms, so even 110V will provide the 10s of milliamps needed to cause fibrillation, and/or prevent you letting go of any live wire you have grasped.
Incidentally, electric fences are usually pulsed with a big enough interval between pulses for a person or animal to get away from the fence after a shock.
Incidentally, electric fences are usually pulsed with a big enough interval between pulses for a person or animal to get away from the fence after a shock.
thenorthern
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It is the amps that kill but you need the volts to penetrate the human body's natural resistance, also there needs to be a return path which is of course normally the ground.
hooverboy
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another good point raised there.
the body's neurological reaction is for muscles to go into "tense" positions if you're unlucky enough to receive a belt.
in the case of hands/fingers this means a grab reflex.
so if you do have to peform any electrical work on something you remotely suspect is live,ALWAYS test with the correct inicator/equipment prior to commencing anything.
then touch first with the outside of your finger- it's natural reflex will be to curl up and away from the power source.
another one(I think very relevant to the railway) is also be aware of your environment.
If you're working somewhere outside-or even a cold warehouse,it's possible to get condensation on electrical fitments that aren't properly IP protected.Especally in spring/autumn when it's wet but changes from water vapour to water droplets collecting on your stuff.
not drying these areas off can be quite serious,it'a nice easy contact,blows stuff up, gives shocks, and it's not something most people give consideration to.
I'm waiting with baited beath for the incidents on insufficiently heated early morning trains with commuters plugging their laptops in .
As the power points become more prevelant,the risk of this type of thing increases.
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At the moment, I couldn't care less how this bloke got on top of the train. Or the ins-and-outs of the electricity. I know for sure, given the BBC article linked upthread, that the man came into contact with the OHLE somehow and is in a very serious condition. I feel genuinely sorry for him and his family at the moment - they must be going through hell.
I wish the man and his relatives nothing but the best. I hope he makes a full recovery and that people on here stop going into the ins-and-outs of how he could have been injured and why electricity does/doesn't do xyz. It's not really important.
-Peter
And it's not often I agree with @DarloRich. But I am serious here.
I wish the man and his relatives nothing but the best. I hope he makes a full recovery and that people on here stop going into the ins-and-outs of how he could have been injured and why electricity does/doesn't do xyz. It's not really important.
-Peter
And it's not often I agree with @DarloRich. But I am serious here.
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