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Could individual tax be reduced if multinationals paid more corporation tax?

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Grumpy Git

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ExRes

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Ever thought how much less individual tax we would all pay if the multinationals were not allowed to negotiate (or simply avoid) their tax obligations?

Indeed I have, but I and I think you, have lived through the economic disaster of a Labour government throwing money left right and centre before, they put the country into massive debt and couldn't even control the Unions who generously assisted the chaos by striking at every opportunity, taxing the rich will hardly touch the surface of the borrowing that Labour and the Lib Dems are promising, that's the manifesto meaning of the word promising of course, not to be confused with the real meaning

I should add, of course, that I'd bet that virtually nobody, dead or alive, will pay less tax once the Labour debt burden gets a hold, already they've sneaked in comments about increasing death duties which will, naturally, cost those expecting to inherit
 

Robertj21a

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Ever thought how much less individual tax we would all pay if the multinationals were not allowed to negotiate (or simply avoid) their tax obligations?

Yes, no difference at all.

If you end up losing these multinationals then you probably also see a big rise in unemployment and the resultant increase in benefit payments. If the multinationals can legally avoid paying UK tax why wouldn't they - it's our laws that may need an overhaul if they are getting away with too much. In any event, the Inland Revenue has always had the ability to negotiate individual arrangements to suit specific circumstances and it would be ridiculous if they couldn't.
 

SamYeager

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Ever thought how much less individual tax we would all pay if the multinationals were not allowed to negotiate (or simply avoid) their tax obligations?
The subject of the amount of tax multinationals (corporations) pay has pretty much zilch to do with "taxing the rich" (individuals).
 

Grumpy Git

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I'm talking about corporation tax. I have a business and I pay 19% of my profits to HMRC. This is non-negotiable. It's time the big boys played fair too, why should they have cosy deals with the tax man? We all as individuals pay more tax to cover their "legal" scams.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I'm talking about corporation tax. I have a business and I pay 19% of my profits to HMRC. This is non-negotiable. It's time the big boys played fair too, why should they have cosy deals with the tax man? We all as individuals pay more tax to cover their "legal" scams.

Agreed in principle.

The problem is... if you're a multinational company, you might have (for example) your offices in Ireland, your sales team in Germany, using servers based in the UK and backed up by a tech support team in India - and these teams help to generate sales all over the World. In that kind of situation it's extremely hard to say with any certainty which of those countries your profits were made in. How on Earth do you determine how much tax should be paid in the UK, how much in Germany, how much in France (where you didn't have anyone operating but customers there still bought your product) and so on? So of course, many multinationals will take advantage of that vagueness to declare virtually all their profits in whatever country the tax they'd have to pay is lowest.

It's not at all fair on small businesses that are only based in one country and can't afford to employ top-notch accountants to arrange their financial affairs so as to knock a few million off their tax bills. But it's not an easy problem to solve when it crosses international boundaries - with every country having a completely different set of tax regulations. I'm pretty sure that is why you get those 'sweetheart' tax deals - for HMRC it's pragmatically the best option to get some tax from those companies without having to pay lawyers potentially millions of pounds to argue about how much money was liable for tax in which country.
 

Robertj21a

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I'm talking about corporation tax. I have a business and I pay 19% of my profits to HMRC. This is non-negotiable. It's time the big boys played fair too, why should they have cosy deals with the tax man? We all as individuals pay more tax to cover their "legal" scams.

They are either legal or they're scams. If the tax man has the right to negotiate special arrangements for the big boys then it would seem that you need to get their powers changed if you don't like it.
 

CdBrux

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I'm talking about corporation tax. I have a business and I pay 19% of my profits to HMRC. This is non-negotiable. It's time the big boys played fair too, why should they have cosy deals with the tax man? We all as individuals pay more tax to cover their "legal" scams.

How would you make sure these big boys pay their taxes and ensure as a result of your actions the tax take by the treasury goes up allowing more money to be spent on rail?
 

underbank

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HMRC don't just "do deals" with big firms. They also did deals with some non UK resident Olympic athletes who refused to attend the London Olympics if they weren't exempted from paying UK tax. Similar has been done with other "stars" such as footballers, international pop stars, even TV personalities, etc. It's completely wrong and unfair to UK taxpayers, but the UK has to be pragmatic - if we want the benefit of big corporations, Olympic athletes and other stars, then a deal must be done, otherwise they just won't come and that may mean greater harm to the UK. What is really needed is more international co-operation and harmonised tax rates, but seeing as we've not achieved that with the EU, it's not going to happen any time soon worldwide.
 

Puffing Devil

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Yes, no difference at all.

If you end up losing these multinationals then you probably also see a big rise in unemployment and the resultant increase in benefit payments. If the multinationals can legally avoid paying UK tax why wouldn't they - it's our laws that may need an overhaul if they are getting away with too much. In any event, the Inland Revenue has always had the ability to negotiate individual arrangements to suit specific circumstances and it would be ridiculous if they couldn't.

In a free market, if one player were to withdraw, another should enter to take their place, unless the goods or services are simply not needed.

The new entrant would need staff, your argument does not stack up.
 

Meerkat

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Some of the deals the HMRC does are for legal reasons.
Firstly it can be more economic to make a deal than spend years and millions of pounds in court, and still risk losing.
Secondly, the company might be willing to pay a deal to avoid court costs, even if they think they might be able to win. Whilst HMRCs risk is not just the significant court costs of losing but the risk that a precedent is set that means they suddenly owe other companies large refunds.

There seems to be a widely held misconception that company tax law is black or white, rather than a maze of interpretation and precedents
 

Meerkat

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In a free market, if one player were to withdraw, another should enter to take their place, unless the goods or services are simply not needed.

The new entrant would need staff, your argument does not stack up.

that assumes the supplier has to be based in this country (the market might not be).
 

underbank

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There seems to be a widely held misconception that company tax law is black or white, rather than a maze of interpretation and precedents

Which is why Dianne Abbot's remark when asked about taxing globals was typically stupid - to paraphrase her "you just work out their UK profits and charge tax on them". If it were that simple, why havn't a succession of Chancellors done it (particularly Brown in his 13 years)? Why do lots of other developed countries have the same problem? The reason is that it's not that simple, due to tax laws being different in different countries, not helped by them being fundamentally based on international accounting standards which are also not black and white either, augmented by bodies such as the "urgent issues task force" which deals with particular accounting issues as and when they arise.
 

Puffing Devil

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Nope. Ever heard of offshoring (or as it's more cynically called "right-shoring")?

I may have heard of the concept. Tell me how it applies when Robertj21a was talking about a Multinational withdrawing from the market, with a resulting loss of jobs?
 

Puffing Devil

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Which is why Dianne Abbot's remark when asked about taxing globals was typically stupid - to paraphrase her "you just work out their UK profits and charge tax on them". If it were that simple, why havn't a succession of Chancellors done it (particularly Brown in his 13 years)? Why do lots of other developed countries have the same problem? The reason is that it's not that simple, due to tax laws being different in different countries, not helped by them being fundamentally based on international accounting standards which are also not black and white either, augmented by bodies such as the "urgent issues task force" which deals with particular accounting issues as and when they arise.

Perhaps if we were determined to stay in a multi-country alliance, it would be easier to develop common tax rules and enforcement?
 

najaB

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I may have heard of the concept. Tell me how it applies when Robertj21a was talking about a Multinational withdrawing from the market, with a resulting loss of jobs?
They don't withdraw from the market, they move their base of operations and the majority of their employees to a different country and continue to sell into the market.

If I'm buying Microsoft products, it really doesn't matter to me if the orders are fulfilled by people based in Reading or in Romania.
 

tbtc

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Read Private Eye - they cover this kind of stuff brilliantly!

Agreed in principle.

The problem is... if you're a multinational company, you might have (for example) your offices in Ireland, your sales team in Germany, using servers based in the UK and backed up by a tech support team in India - and these teams help to generate sales all over the World. In that kind of situation it's extremely hard to say with any certainty which of those countries your profits were made in. How on Earth do you determine how much tax should be paid in the UK, how much in Germany, how much in France (where you didn't have anyone operating but customers there still bought your product) and so on? So of course, many multinationals will take advantage of that vagueness to declare virtually all their profits in whatever country the tax they'd have to pay is lowest.

It's not at all fair on small businesses that are only based in one country and can't afford to employ top-notch accountants to arrange their financial affairs so as to knock a few million off their tax bills. But it's not an easy problem to solve when it crosses international boundaries - with every country having a completely different set of tax regulations. I'm pretty sure that is why you get those 'sweetheart' tax deals - for HMRC it's pragmatically the best option to get some tax from those companies without having to pay lawyers potentially millions of pounds to argue about how much money was liable for tax in which country.

^^agreed ^^

The problem is that we have some politicians who either don't understand the complexities or who willingly pretend things are much simpler to appears an electorate who don't understand the complexities.

One of the Labour Shadow Cabinet recently showed a great example of this when she gave the impression she didn't understand the difference between Amazon's revenues and Amazon's profits - suggesting that they should have paid significantly more tax because of how high their revenue was (ignoring the fact that some companies can have a huge revenue and fail to make much profit!).

Taking Amazon as an example (as they are the poster boys for excess here), if I buy a £10 book from them, I'm ordering from a Luxembourg branch of an American company who pay a UK company to deliver it - Amazon's accounts will show something like I've paid the Luxembourg company £10.00 and they've paid the UK firm 50p to deliver it, which is the cost of delivery (i.e. the UK company makes no profits, as the revenue allocated to it is only enough to cover costs), so the "profit" is made by the Luxembourg company - no coincidence that corporation tax is significantly lower there.

Same with Google, who (IIRC) claim that most of the work done selling adverts in the UK is actually carried out in Dublin, where Irish taxes are lower than British ones.

Or Starbucks, who can claim that the majority of profit on your £3 coffee is going towards the licensing wing of the company (in the US) rather than to the bit that you bought the drink off (i.e. if Seattle charge local shops a quid for the licensing mark up on every drink that they sell).

What's the way round this? Can you force them to declare more of their revenue as actually being in the higher tax countries? Doubtful! The only way would be multinational agreement between Governments to at least ensure common standards (say, something like a Europe-wide jurisdiction, that stops companies playing one country off against another?).

The UK can't force other countries to increase their tax rates to UK levels (imagine the tabloid outrage if Germany tried to force the UK to increase our rate of corporation tax to match theirs!), so companies are always going to be able to shift revenue around the world on paper - I think there's an American state that does a lot of this (Delaware?) - figuring that they are better off by getting a tiny amount from lots of big companies than getting nothing.

And Governments are cash strapped and can't afford the smooth lawyers that big business can pay for, so this will continue to go on. Especially as a lot of the Government people looking at laws are those conveniently "loaned"/ "seconded" from the big accountancy firms (who have a clear interest in getting lax laws that their rich clients can drive a coach and horses through).

Finally, whilst this is obviously a problem and a massive reason for lower tax rates, its not the only one - but its easier to whip up populist outrage against Google/ Amazon/ Starbucks than to suggest reform of the overall tax situation. For example, I'd like to see moves to stop people buying firms and then loading them with huge debts (so that the firm never makes a profit on paper as it is paying a crazy rate of interest on the loan to a parent company) - maybe a maximum level of interest that could be mitigated on loans for tax purposes (to stop some of the crazier examples of this), but it's not going to get much attention compared to some outraged Facebook post about nasty American companies not paying much tax on £1bn of revenue
 

EM2

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Yes, no difference at all.

If you end up losing these multinationals then you probably also see a big rise in unemployment and the resultant increase in benefit payments.
As the proposals from Labour would return Corporation Tax rates to those in 2010, why should there be a mass exodus of multinationals from the UK market,when there wasn't then?
 

Puffing Devil

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They don't withdraw from the market, they move their base of operations and the majority of their employees to a different country and continue to sell into the market.

If I'm buying Microsoft products, it really doesn't matter to me if the orders are fulfilled by people based in Reading or in Romania.

Then they are not withdrawing from the market, they are shifting their base of operations. The OP was talking about withdrawing from the market.
 

najaB

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Then they are not withdrawing from the market, they are shifting their base of operations. The OP was talking about withdrawing from the market.
Then company A withdraws from the market and company B (which based in another country) moves in. Same effect: company A's former employees are replaced by company B's offshore staff.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would an option here be to add an employer's income tax as well as employer's NICs? That would be hard for them to avoid - if someone works in the UK you have to pay it and can't avoid it by relocating technicalities abroad.
 

najaB

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Would an option here be to add an employer's income tax as well as employer's NICs? That would be hard for them to avoid - if someone works in the UK you have to pay it and can't avoid it by relocating technicalities abroad.
It would increase tax take, but I don't think by that much. The biggest offenders can have sales that dwarf their wages bills. Tech companies, for example, generally have a much higher revenue per employee than retail.
 

Puffing Devil

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Then company A withdraws from the market and company B (which based in another country) moves in. Same effect: company A's former employees are replaced by company B's offshore staff.

Depends on the business - you can't offshore personal care for example.
 

underbank

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Perhaps if we were determined to stay in a multi-country alliance, it would be easier to develop common tax rules and enforcement?

Yes, that's what is happening, there are quite a lot of developed countries trying to agree common rules etc., but as you'd expect, some countries aren't very accommodating, notably those with low tax rates that benefit enormously from being tax havens. It's certainly not an "easy" task and has been ongoing a few years now with not much progress being made.
 

underbank

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Would an option here be to add an employer's income tax as well as employer's NICs? That would be hard for them to avoid - if someone works in the UK you have to pay it and can't avoid it by relocating technicalities abroad.

Employers NIC is one of the reasons why firms are reluctant to take on staff and engage "self employed" instead, i.e. Amazon and other van drivers, uber drivers, personal service companies for IT consultants etc. The BBC didn't engage presenters on self employment contracts for the fun of it - it was to avoid employer costs such as employers NIC! Before any changes are made to penalise employers, you need to find ways of stopping the "abuse" of false self employment, otherwise more and more firms will try it.
 

underbank

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As the proposals from Labour would return Corporation Tax rates to those in 2010, why should there be a mass exodus of multinationals from the UK market,when there wasn't then?

Because some other countries have reduced their CT rates since then too!
 

Bletchleyite

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Employers NIC is one of the reasons why firms are reluctant to take on staff and engage "self employed" instead, i.e. Amazon and other van drivers, uber drivers, personal service companies for IT consultants etc. The BBC didn't engage presenters on self employment contracts for the fun of it - it was to avoid employer costs such as employers NIC! Before any changes are made to penalise employers, you need to find ways of stopping the "abuse" of false self employment, otherwise more and more firms will try it.

I thought IR35 was being tightened up very shortly to avoid this?
 
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