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Southeastern Franchise: Extension granted for minimum 18 months

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Terry Tait

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Just heard on BBC Southeast news that Southeastern is having talks with the government about extending its franchise beyond April and wants exclusive access preventing any other operators, given that they've already had previous extensions, how is this right?
 
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cactustwirly

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Just heard on BBC Southeast news that Southeastern is having talks with the government about extending its franchise beyond April and wants exclusive access preventing any other operators, given that they've already had previous extensions, how is this right?

Because the government ballsed up on the new franchise tender
 

ComUtoR

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2yr extension too. HAAHHEHEheEHEHHAHaHHHLOOOOLLLL. Bugger !
 

3270

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The possible Direct Award was mentioned in a Trading Update statement that Go-Ahead issued to the stock market this morning.
https://www.go-ahead.com/download_file/force/948/228
"The current franchise term ends on 31 March 2020 and we are in discussions with the DfT regarding a potential Direct Award Contract from 1 April 2020."
 

BluePenguin

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The all important question is, if another extension is granted will we still reap the benefits of the new franchise? Apart from 15 minute delay repay so far we have gained diddly squat
 

option

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Just heard on BBC Southeast news that Southeastern is having talks with the government about extending its franchise beyond April and wants exclusive access preventing any other operators, given that they've already had previous extensions, how is this right?

Why isn't it right?

The contract ends in 4 months, & if there's been no arrangements made for transfer of all the contracts, then everything stops. They would even have to give staff their notice.
So you'd start April with no trains running on SouthEastern.
 

ComUtoR

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The contract ends in 4 months, & if there's been no arrangements made for transfer of all the contracts, then everything stops. They would even have to give staff their notice.
So you'd start April with no trains running on SouthEastern.

The 'Operator of Last Resort' will be mobilized and they would take over. There would be a seamless transition and there would be no loss of service.
 

CptCharlee

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Or it could become the first franchise to be renationalised post election! Would be quite interesting.
 

ScotGG

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Shambles. Endless stagnation with investment. Passenger growth rising 5%
 

DynamicSpirit

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Why isn't it right?

Because it would mean that the SouthEastern network would end up spending years on end being run by an operator that is constantly expecting to lose the franchise in the near future, and therefore has no incentive to invest in anything that will take longer than a few months to repay itself.
 

Daz28

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Another typical week on Southeastern. I know that many of these issues are not the fault of the TOC, but the end result is constant disruption for passengers who are already paying through the nose to stand in cramped peak time trains.

All week we have been subject to the amended leaf-fall timetable, meaning that many of the metro stations are facing a reduced service, particularly off-peak. Also electrical supply issues on the Sheerness branch mean that stock has had to be swapped leading to short forming elsewhere.

We began the week with over running engineering at Ashford, a major signal fault at Lewisham that affected services most of the day, a broken down train / disruptive passenger blocking half the platforms at Cannon Street in the morning peak, a signal fault at Rochester and an ill passenger at Hither Green. Not a good Monday.

Tuesday didn’t get much better. Signal faults at Charing, Hayes and Catford Bridge, a faulty train at St Johns, a passenger taken ill at Bromley South, trespassers on the line at Welling and a broken down train at Peckham Rye all caused delays.

Wednesday was marginally better, only one signalling fault, this time at Shortlands, but it took a long time to fix. Slippery rails at Tonbridge and Lewisham caused issues, as did a broken down train at St Johns. Trespassers near New Cross and a bridge strike at Nunhead didn’t help, and a road accident near Slade Green led to crew shortages in the evening peak as they couldn’t get to the depot.

Thursday brought major disruption all day as a broken rail between St Johns and New Cross couldn’t be repaired and a speed restriction led to delays and cancellations all day. A broken down train at Blackheath, an ill passenger at Westcombe Park, an obstruction on the track at Birchington all caused issues. Today’s signal faults were at Canterbury West and Sturry, and slippery rails Ashford to Otford.

Friday and we have yet another signalling problem at Lewisham and now the terrorist incident has closed London Bridge station.

I’ve missed out numerous cancellations due to train faults, short formed stock, emergency engineering works affecting early or late services and the usual delays due to congestion. A bad week, but actually a fairly typical week on Southeastern. Regrettably I don’t think a change of franchise will actually improve many of them.
 

3141

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Because it would mean that the SouthEastern network would end up spending years on end being run by an operator that is constantly expecting to lose the franchise in the near future, and therefore has no incentive to invest in anything that will take longer than a few months to repay itself.

As the current franchise extension runs out at the end of March, something has to take its place, and there's not time for a new franchise to be tendered, bid for and evaluated. Therefore it's either another extension or OLR. "No incentive to invest in anything that will take longer than a few months to repay itself" could apply just as much to OLR as to an extended Govia. If, as reported in post #3, an extension will be for two years, then there will be some opportunity for improvements. In any case, it would take about eighteen months, and maybe more, for DfT to formulate an new invitation to tender, invite bids, receive bids and evaluate them, and allow time for mobilisation. Before the DfT even invites tenders it has to decide whether to include the SE Metro services or transfer them to TfL. So like it or not, and some obviously don't, a two year extension is almost inevitable and better than another 6 month extension.
 

ComUtoR

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Any extension or direct award is bad. It almost admits that whatever the Williams review comes up with will not be implemented for at least two years, or for whatever the extension may be. Any extension is almost an admission that the Gov do not want to take over the franchise. Is SE such a poisoned chalice that they don't want to touch it ? Why take LNER and not SE ?

I would prefer the OLR so that should anything need to change, it can happen without delay.

What needs to happen is that whomever takes over, they start making significant changes, rather than the crappy B"£$"t ones that have plagued the franchise. They need to start to procure new stock from the start and if that means that the DfT should take the hit, then so be it. Giving GoVia the extension and some for of backhander isn't beneficial for the franchise. There needs to be some kind of mechanism to move this part of the network forward. I would like to see GoVia get the Direct Award but in co-operation with the DfT to support investment going forward.
 

3141

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Obviously I don't know what Williams will propose, but anything extensive will probably require some legislation, which will take time to plan and get carried through, and then to start implementing it, so a medium-term extension will still be necessary. That's a reality unconnected with making arrangements for South Eastern services from next April.

Why take LNER and not SE? Probably because Virgin EC was running out of money and as the DfT was unwilling to renegotiate the franchise and let Virgin/Stagecoach continue it installed OLR instead. South Eastern is not in that situation. Presumably OLR could come in, if the DfT and Govia cannot agree on the terms for an extension.

I agree that Govia + DfT agreeing on investment and development over the next two years would be a good thing (assuming that would be consistent with the Williams proposals), and a two-year extension would allow additional stock to be obtained, especially since there will be plenty of it sitting in sidings waiting to be re-used. But, as previously pointed out on here, more sidings will be needed for it.
 

Horizon22

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Another typical week on Southeastern. I know that many of these issues are not the fault of the TOC, but the end result is constant disruption for passengers who are already paying through the nose to stand in cramped peak time trains.

All week we have been subject to the amended leaf-fall timetable, meaning that many of the metro stations are facing a reduced service, particularly off-peak. Also electrical supply issues on the Sheerness branch mean that stock has had to be swapped leading to short forming elsewhere.

We began the week with over running engineering at Ashford, a major signal fault at Lewisham that affected services most of the day, a broken down train / disruptive passenger blocking half the platforms at Cannon Street in the morning peak, a signal fault at Rochester and an ill passenger at Hither Green. Not a good Monday.

Tuesday didn’t get much better. Signal faults at Charing, Hayes and Catford Bridge, a faulty train at St Johns, a passenger taken ill at Bromley South, trespassers on the line at Welling and a broken down train at Peckham Rye all caused delays.

Wednesday was marginally better, only one signalling fault, this time at Shortlands, but it took a long time to fix. Slippery rails at Tonbridge and Lewisham caused issues, as did a broken down train at St Johns. Trespassers near New Cross and a bridge strike at Nunhead didn’t help, and a road accident near Slade Green led to crew shortages in the evening peak as they couldn’t get to the depot.

Thursday brought major disruption all day as a broken rail between St Johns and New Cross couldn’t be repaired and a speed restriction led to delays and cancellations all day. A broken down train at Blackheath, an ill passenger at Westcombe Park, an obstruction on the track at Birchington all caused issues. Today’s signal faults were at Canterbury West and Sturry, and slippery rails Ashford to Otford.

Friday and we have yet another signalling problem at Lewisham and now the terrorist incident has closed London Bridge station.

I’ve missed out numerous cancellations due to train faults, short formed stock, emergency engineering works affecting early or late services and the usual delays due to congestion. A bad week, but actually a fairly typical week on Southeastern. Regrettably I don’t think a change of franchise will actually improve many of them.

The leaf-fall timetable is in its 5th week, and effects only a few stations in the off-peak. Impact is minimal. The problem can actually be worse in the peak when you can't just skip stops so it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It was actually a significantly worse week than any for a very long time. As you've noted, very few of those are directly in Southeastern's control. Of course everyone (staff and passengers alike) is sick with "signalling problems at Lewisham" but its one of the most complex junctions in London if not the country. To rectify the issue would require a) a reduction in available London terminals to all passengers on metro routes and changing at London Bridge (not very palatable to passengers although most have got over not having direct services to Charing Cross via Greenwich) or b) a very expensive, hugely disruptive rebuilding effort at Lewisham (not very palatable to passengers, Lewisham council, or the DfT).

Anyway, obviously something will need to be done regarding the franchise; doesn't seem like there's much desire for a OLR situation, and SE probably would just plan some of their smaller original franchise bids for the months following April 2020. It's still just endlessly kicking problems into the long grass which is good for pretty much nobody. This could all become moot considering the General Election anyway.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Of course everyone (staff and passengers alike) is sick with "signalling problems at Lewisham" but its one of the most complex junctions in London if not the country. To rectify the issue would require a) a reduction in available London terminals to all passengers on metro routes and changing at London Bridge (not very palatable to passengers although most have got over not having direct services to Charing Cross via Greenwich) or b) a very expensive, hugely disruptive rebuilding effort at Lewisham (not very palatable to passengers, Lewisham council, or the DfT).

I'm intrigued by this. Most complex junctions in the country? It's basically two double track lines that have a double-crossover. Is that really more complex than anything anywhere else? I'd grant probably one of the most actively worked in terms of points needing to change position every few minutes, but how does that all lead to such unreliable signalling? It's also a very slow speed junction - I'm guessing that almost nothing ever passes it at more than about 20mph.

And - maybe a bit tongue n' cheek, but it's at a staffed station with very good visibility of all lines from the end of the central platform. At the speeds trains go at, couldn't you practically have a person stood on the platform waving trains through when signals fail, if safety regulations allowed it ;) Possibly a tad cheaper than completely rebuilding the station (desirable though that would be for other reasons).

Agree with you that this week was a pretty exceptional week. Apart from anything else, it's not exactly every week that the whole of London Bridge station closes because of terror attacks!
 

Horizon22

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I'm intrigued by this. Most complex junctions in the country? It's basically two double track lines that have a double-crossover. Is that really more complex than anything anywhere else? I'd grant probably one of the most actively worked in terms of points needing to change position every few minutes, but how does that all lead to such unreliable signalling? It's also a very slow speed junction - I'm guessing that almost nothing ever passes it at more than about 20mph.

And - maybe a bit tongue n' cheek, but it's at a staffed station with very good visibility of all lines from the end of the central platform. At the speeds trains go at, couldn't you practically have a person stood on the platform waving trains through when signals fail, if safety regulations allowed it ;) Possibly a tad cheaper than completely rebuilding the station (desirable though that would be for other reasons).

Agree with you that this week was a pretty exceptional week. Apart from anything else, it's not exactly every week that the whole of London Bridge station closes because of terror attacks!

I should have perhaps added complex and intensively used and geographically significant. The increase in trains over the past 20 years has meant that anything remotely minor going wrong there has a huge knock effect to the entire SE network, whether you are in mainline or metro world. If it goes wrong in or around the peak, forgot about anything running to PPM for another 2-3 hours.

It's not all about signals failing in one might consider a conventional sense. Sometimes certain routes are or are not available. What about the signals on approach to the station? You couldn't have a staff member to control those situations. Even if this wouldn't require a complete competency framework far beyond what the regular dispatcher is required to do (what you're proposing is talking trains past signals, only to be done between a driver and signaller), this would still significantly delay the process and cause a backlog of trains through Lewisham.
 

ComUtoR

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I'm intrigued by this. Most complex junctions in the country? It's basically two double track lines that have a double-crossover. Is that really more complex than anything anywhere else? I'd grant probably one of the most actively worked in terms of points needing to change position every few minutes, but how does that all lead to such unreliable signalling? It's also a very slow speed junction - I'm guessing that almost nothing ever passes it at more than about 20mph.

When there was a cracked rail there a few years ago it caused huge disruption. We then discovered that the 'switch diamond' is rather unique and there are no molds in the UK and it had to be recast in Germany. The switch diamond alone being unique presents some problems.

As to 'complex' I'd leave that to the experts but the interlocking there must be quite insane. There is a crossover of GSMR panels and there are two controlling signal boxes (potentially 3) that need to communicate with each other. In terms of trains per hour, it must be up there with the best. PSR is 20 in all directions. As to how much of an impact it has on the entire SE network. Take a look back at the Lewisham Incident where the junction effectively shut down that entire part of the network.

And - maybe a bit tongue n' cheek, but it's at a staffed station with very good visibility of all lines from the end of the central platform. At the speeds trains go at, couldn't you practically have a person stood on the platform waving trains through when signals fail, if safety regulations allowed it ;)

I have no idea what this comment is suggesting.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I should have perhaps added complex and intensively used and geographically significant. The increase in trains over the past 20 years has meant that anything remotely minor going wrong there has a huge knock effect to the entire SE network, whether you are in mainline or metro world. If it goes wrong in or around the peak, forgot about anything running to PPM for another 2-3 hours.

It's not all about signals failing in one might consider a conventional sense. Sometimes certain routes are or are not available. What about the signals on approach to the station? You couldn't have a staff member to control those situations. Even if this wouldn't require a complete competency framework far beyond what the regular dispatcher is required to do (what you're proposing is talking trains past signals, only to be done between a driver and signaller), this would still significantly delay the process and cause a backlog of trains through Lewisham.

Ah thanks. Yes, that makes a lot more sense :)
 

CeeJ

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If we are looking at a 2-year extension, I would hope that would include improvements to the Key system - like automatic delay repay, flexible tickets, PAYG, etc. and improvements to station staffing time while the DfT begins tendering for new rolling stock to replace the Networkers.

2 years ago I would've squawked at the thought of a Govia extension, but a lot of their recent changes have actually been quite positive.
 

brad465

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Another typical week on Southeastern. I know that many of these issues are not the fault of the TOC, but the end result is constant disruption for passengers who are already paying through the nose to stand in cramped peak time trains.

All week we have been subject to the amended leaf-fall timetable, meaning that many of the metro stations are facing a reduced service, particularly off-peak. Also electrical supply issues on the Sheerness branch mean that stock has had to be swapped leading to short forming elsewhere.

Wednesday was marginally better, only one signalling fault, this time at Shortlands, but it took a long time to fix. Slippery rails at Tonbridge and Lewisham caused issues, as did a broken down train at St Johns. Trespassers near New Cross and a bridge strike at Nunhead didn’t help, and a road accident near Slade Green led to crew shortages in the evening peak as they couldn’t get to the depot.

Thursday brought major disruption all day as a broken rail between St Johns and New Cross couldn’t be repaired and a speed restriction led to delays and cancellations all day. A broken down train at Blackheath, an ill passenger at Westcombe Park, an obstruction on the track at Birchington all caused issues. Today’s signal faults were at Canterbury West and Sturry, and slippery rails Ashford to Otford.



I’ve missed out numerous cancellations due to train faults, short formed stock, emergency engineering works affecting early or late services and the usual delays due to congestion. A bad week, but actually a fairly typical week on Southeastern. Regrettably I don’t think a change of franchise will actually improve many of them.
You're gonna love the timetable on the Sheerness branch coming up then in a few weeks when 375/3s are a permanent feature of the shuttles, as the 466 derogation will bar them from doing that again unless someone gives them full PRM compliance, which links back to the troubles of franchise delays/extensions here.

With the leaf fall issues is that actually all SE's fault? They implement that timetable yes but surely if the slippery rails are causing that much disruption Network Rail need to get their RTH trains out more often (if they can). I do see them often go past the window of my office near Borough Green.
 

aleggatta

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Am I right in thinking, presumably as much discussion can take place between goVia and the DfT regarding this extension, but no decision can be made until after government reforms and we come out of purdah?
 

Geogregor

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Another meltdown this morning, this time on the lines between Orpington and Victoria.

As for the leaf timetable I'm doubtful how effective or needed it is. I can see trains routinely arriving early after skipping previous station and then just waiting for the correct departure time. I'm sure there are times and locations where it might make sense but I think Southestern overuses this procedure.
 

hwl

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You're gonna love the timetable on the Sheerness branch coming up then in a few weeks when 375/3s are a permanent feature of the shuttles, as the 466 derogation will bar them from doing that again unless someone gives them full PRM compliance, which links back to the troubles of franchise delays/extensions here.

With the leaf fall issues is that actually all SE's fault? They implement that timetable yes but surely if the slippery rails are causing that much disruption Network Rail need to get their RTH trains out more often (if they can). I do see them often go past the window of my office near Borough Green.
A visit from the chain saw gang to get rid of most of the problems species might be more useful.
The problems is that weather plays big part: wind to bring the problem species leaves down and water to help form the paste
Hence most of the time in Autumn there aren't issues in the majority of locations and things work ok.
SE, SN and SWR will all often have bad days together due to the weather being fairly similar for all of them.
 

hwl

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I'm intrigued by this. Most complex junctions in the country? It's basically two double track lines that have a double-crossover. Is that really more complex than anything anywhere else? I'd grant probably one of the most actively worked in terms of points needing to change position every few minutes, but how does that all lead to such unreliable signalling? It's also a very slow speed junction - I'm guessing that almost nothing ever passes it at more than about 20mph.
I should have perhaps added complex and intensively used and geographically significant. The increase in trains over the past 20 years has meant that anything remotely minor going wrong there has a huge knock effect to the entire SE network, whether you are in mainline or metro world. If it goes wrong in or around the peak, forgot about anything running to PPM for another 2-3 hours.

It's not all about signals failing in one might consider a conventional sense. Sometimes certain routes are or are not available. What about the signals on approach to the station? You couldn't have a staff member to control those situations. Even if this wouldn't require a complete competency framework far beyond what the regular dispatcher is required to do (what you're proposing is talking trains past signals, only to be done between a driver and signaller), this would still significantly delay the process and cause a backlog of trains through Lewisham.

The Windmill Bridge Junction complex in a different league to everything else. There are plenty similar to Lewisham nationally.

Everyone always think that their local problem is the biggest/worst.

The train numbers are still far smaller than they once were through Lewisham:
Replacing the EPBs with fewer Networkers and the early '70s London Bridge resignalling (with increased safety margins e.g. no mid platform detonator placers at London Bridge) both saw an decrease in trains through Lewisham.
But - the Tanner Hill flydown, both original version and post recent rebuild led to more conflicting moves across the junction.
 

Horizon22

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The Windmill Bridge Junction complex in a different league to everything else. There are plenty similar to Lewisham nationally.

Everyone always think that their local problem is the biggest/worst.

The train numbers are still far smaller than they once were through Lewisham:
Replacing the EPBs with fewer Networkers and the early '70s London Bridge resignalling (with increased safety margins e.g. no mid platform detonator placers at London Bridge) both saw an decrease in trains through Lewisham.
But - the Tanner Hill flydown, both original version and post recent rebuild led to more conflicting moves across the junction.

Windmill Junction is bad indeed, but at least there's various flyovers and levels for the trains passing through the area. Plus there's clearly scoped worked in CP6 to rectify the issue. I see no suggested plan to deal with Lewisham except an originally muted terminal "rationalisation" plan that was angryily shouted down by the SE London mob. Considering many of them have probably experienced London Bridge now, they may be more willing to accept a change there than deal with endless Lewisham debacles. Maybe.
 

Snow1964

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Am I right in thinking, presumably as much discussion can take place between goVia and the DfT regarding this extension, but no decision can be made until after government reforms and we come out of purdah?

Correct it would be wrong for a contract (extension) to be signed during purdah

Of course it is an extension to multiple extensions as should have ended 1st April 2019, then 22 June 2019 then 19 Nov 2019, then 1st April 2020

But I do think getting a 5th (or is it more) extension with nobody else being allowed to compete is farcical

The Invitation to Tender was over 24 months ago, and failing to decide what to do for so long is excessive dithering even if trying to incorporate the Williams review suggestions
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/south-eastern-franchise-2017-invitation-to-tender
 
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