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Every Calder Valley Leeds-bounds service late

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Llama

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Hi everyone, new to this forum.

Has anyone noticed the class 195s are taking longer when approaching and leaving Bradford Interchange?

Have the drivers been told to be extra cautious when coming down the hill? It appears to me that they are constantly breaking which results in a strong juddering action.
They shouldn't be, and drivers haven't been told to do anything different there or at any other location on 195s. The approach to Bradford Interchange is still 15mph.

By juddering do you mean on-off-on-off the brake throwing people around? If so, that's just poor technique. It's actually possible to get a smoother approach in a 195 than with Northern's usual fleet with three step brakes - on a 195 you can make as little as 10% brake application which is pretty much perfect for holding speed at 15mph on the 1-in-50 from Mill Lane Jn towards the platforms at Bradford Interchange. Speed must be dropped to below 10mph by the TPWS OSS loops in all platforms there, drivers should be careful of this regardless of traction type as at Bradford Interchange the rear of the train will be still on the falling gradient increasing speed again as the train approaches the TPWS loops, which are all at different and non-standard distances from the respective buffer stops in the platforms there.
 
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Class195

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They shouldn't be, and drivers haven't been told to do anything different there or at any other location on 195s. The approach to Bradford Interchange is still 15mph.

By juddering do you mean on-off-on-off the brake throwing people around? If so, that's just poor technique. It's actually possible to get a smoother approach in a 195 than with Northern's usual fleet with three step brakes - on a 195 you can make as little as 10% brake application which is pretty much perfect for holding speed at 15mph on the 1-in-50 from Mill Lane Jn towards the platforms at Bradford Interchange. Speed must be dropped to below 10mph by the TPWS OSS loops in all platforms there, drivers should be careful of this regardless of traction type as at Bradford Interchange the rear of the train will be still on the falling gradient increasing speed again as the train approaches the TPWS loops, which are all at different and non-standard distances from the respective buffer stops in the platforms there.

On a number of services, the drivers are on/off with the brake which has led to strong juddering/shaking as the train comes down the gradient and into the platforms.

For comparison, the class 158s that I catch from Preston to Bradford just glide smoothly down the hill and into the platforms.

I presume it's the drivers just being extra cautious because of the gradient?
 

Llama

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It's not so much caution, it's quite poor technique. Below 24mph on a 195 the friction brake operates (as opposed to the dynamic brake above 24mph) and that is quite 'sharp' when being initially applied or released. Like I say, it is possible to be very smooth when maintaining a constant speed on a steep falling gradient on a 195 but that takes a bit of experience and conscientiousness.

On the 158 the brake applies in fixed 'steps' (hence the term three step brake), step 1 gives minimal retardation and the brake on a 158 is quite gentle when it applies and releases in comparison to a 195 so the same technique used on a 158 and a 195 (apply-release-apply) is a lot smoother on a 158 even if the driver isn't particularly skilled.
 

Bantamzen

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@Llama thanks for the informative posts on the issues surrounding the 195s. Its reassuring as a passenger that a lot of them are just down to drivers getting used to a new fleet and a very different set of operations. Hopefully others will be equally reassured that once these teething troubles are bedded in the 195s will start to come into their own. And hopefully the process of getting used to them isn't too stressful to the drivers!
 

TUC

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External, I don't know, I doubt it. But, the course has to meet a lot of specific criteria to satisfy the TOC's safety case in line with relevant RGS (Railway Group Standards) to do with certain major features or procedures that have to be explained explicitly to drivers. These are even noted within those booklets as fulfilling that purpose. The course content is also agreed internally with Aslef, however the reps who verify the content of the course are hardly the sorts of drivers I would consider knowledgeable about the characteristics of risks of these units and none of them were familiar/competent to drive the units at the time they were required to verify the course content. Those reps report up to senior reps at Aslef head office who make the decision based on the report received as to whether the training course as a whole is acceptable to Aslef or not.

Earlier this year there was a classroom of drivers at Allerton depot literally sat around a table in a classroom waiting for word to come through from London that Aslef executive committee had formally agreed the course, so that they could commence training those drivers.

I could write a book on all the farces I've seen in the last few years but nobody would actually believe most of it, it would sound too ridiculous to be true.
More fool the railway industry for putting up with such approaches. It's public money that is being wasted on such arcane approaches.
 

TUC

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The PIS not working properly on some 195s is a potential safety issue. I mentioned above the 195 announcing Halifax when at Bradford Interchange. Whilst on a 195 last night, although Bradford had been correctly announced, whilst at the station the display changed to saying 'approaching Halifax'. One can see the potential for a vulnerable passenger to get off at an incorrect station and be left stranded.
 

NorthWestRover

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I caught the 16.23 from Wigan NW to Manchester yesterday. A 195 on time, room for everybody, lovely journey. Only delay was waiting for platform at Oxford Road. At Wigan the Barrow and Liverpool departures just before arrived and left on time - a 195 and a 331 respectively. All lovely.
 

Llama

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No problems. The 195s have the capability to make a big difference to the Calder Valley route, they're significantly quicker than the other traction when driven well, could easily shave five minutes off the quickest timings between Leeds and Manchester and so long as they are diagrammed thoughtfully and the traincrew, and I include depot drivers on Newton Heath in that, are made to become more familiar with the units and get over the culture shock of bring dragged into the 21st century and having to think laterally about the new faults the units present (new trains, same old rules and regs) they shouldn't be unreliable.
 

Whisky Papa

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Oh yes, absolutely. But then the training is absolutely minimal to the point where information as to how the units actually work, and how the systems interact with one another, is withheld even from the instructors giving the training so as to make the training course as brief as is possible.

I have current traction manuals for everything from 08s to 68s to 180s and the one major thing that stands out about the CAF units is that the actual traction manual has never been issued to anyone who drives these units - not to drivers, instructors or managers. Drivers are given training material in the form of six books (I say books, they're printed on A4 paper for each course in booklet format) and told that those are what they need to carry round with them. These 'books' are very sparse in information, full of mistakes and lack detail.

Are you able (or willing) to confirm how many days the training programme takes for drivers? I am sure I saw a post somewhere about actually driving a 195 on the sixth day of the course.
 

Llama

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Yes the 195 training course is six days, the four hours practical handling is on the sixth day. That's fairly normal, 95% of the stuff to learn on traction training is not stuff to do with physically driving. There's also a practical and theory assessment to be done after the sixth day to be certified competent to work the units.
 

Whisky Papa

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Yes the 195 training course is six days, the four hours practical handling is on the sixth day. That's fairly normal, 95% of the stuff to learn on traction training is not stuff to do with physically driving. There's also a practical and theory assessment to be done after the sixth day to be certified competent to work the units.

Many thanks for the confirmation.
 

Class195

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It's not so much caution, it's quite poor technique. Below 24mph on a 195 the friction brake operates (as opposed to the dynamic brake above 24mph) and that is quite 'sharp' when being initially applied or released. Like I say, it is possible to be very smooth when maintaining a constant speed on a steep falling gradient on a 195 but that takes a bit of experience and conscientiousness.

On the 158 the brake applies in fixed 'steps' (hence the term three step brake), step 1 gives minimal retardation and the brake on a 158 is quite gentle when it applies and releases in comparison to a 195 so the same technique used on a 158 and a 195 (apply-release-apply) is a lot smoother on a 158 even if the driver isn't particularly skilled.

Thank you for the information above.

Hopefully, with more driver hours on the 195s, we will see a more smoother ride down the slope into Bradford.
 

Steddenm

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The 195s and 331s at Poulton-le-Fylde point to the wrong side for door unlock on approach from Blackpool. As soon as it arrives into the station though they point to the right side.
 

philthetube

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Hi everyone, new to this forum.

Has anyone noticed the class 195s are taking longer when approaching and leaving Bradford Interchange?

Have the drivers been told to be extra cautious when coming down the hill? It appears to me that they are constantly breaking which results in a strong juddering action.

Could this be wheel slip protection?
 

Llama

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The word juddering could make you think that but I suspect what was possibly meant was that the driver was fanning the brake. The final approach into Bradford isn't considered to be a particularly low adhesion area, but it is a steep falling gradient with a low permissible speed. Heavy WSP activity on a 195 feels about the same as it does on a 158 (or it should do if the autosanders are actually working - that's another thing that was found not to work as expected on the 195s, uncovered after a station overrun due to low adhesion).
 

Bovverboy

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The 195s and 331s at Poulton-le-Fylde point to the wrong side for door unlock on approach from Blackpool. As soon as it arrives into the station though they point to the right side.

In what circumstances do 195s approach Poulton-le-Fylde from Blackpool?
 

Llama

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Aren't there one or two services from Blackpool to Manchester Airport/vice versa booked a 195, I seem to remember seeing a diagram with one routed via Chorley a few months ago.

The issue, assuming everything is set up correctly, could be an Asdo database error whereby the info uploaded to Asdo is just incorrect, as in someone has entered incorrect information into the database as to the side the platform is located at Poulton, and Asdo tries to preempt the doors on the wrong side hence the red 'door not in use' lights lit on the platform side only. If Asdo couldn't be sure of its location then the red lights would be lit on both sides.

If those red lights are lit on the platform side at a station, irrespective of whether the opposite side also has the red lights lit or not, this would just cause the guard to have to override Asdo to enable them to release the doors on the correct side. I'm fairly sure Rochdale had the same issue at first.
 

Bovverboy

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Aren't there one or two services from Blackpool to Manchester Airport/vice versa booked a 195, I seem to remember seeing a diagram with one routed via Chorley a few months ago.

The only journey to/from Blackpool booked for a 195, to the best of my knowledge, is 2234 SuX Manchester Airport to Blackpool North - but that doesn't approach Poulton from Blackpool.
 

TUC

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On a 195 this morning, the PIS announced at Mytholmroyd that the train was too long for the platform and that not every door will open. Therefore passengers should find a door adjacent to the platform that will open. However it didn't say which carriages or doors these were. I stared out into the darkness and wondered how passengers were meant to spot the platform and, if they did, how any that are mobility impaired or with luggage are meant to get down the train quickly enough to get off, given they won't know which doors to go to until the train has already stopped.

I'm left wondering whether those who programmed the system had any common sense whatsoever.
 
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Britannia94

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On a 195 this morning, the PIS announced at Mytholmroyd that the train was too long for the platform and that not every door will open. Therefore passengers should find a door adjacent to the platform that will open. However it didn't say which carriages or doors these were. I stared out into the darkness and wondered how passengers were meant to spot the platform and, if they did, how any that are mobility impaired or with luggage are meant to get down the train quickly enough to get off, given they won't know which doors to go to until the train has already stopped.

I'm left wondering whether those who programmed the system had any common sense whatsoever.

The 331s do the same thing at Apperley Bridge on occasion, which is long enough for 4 carriage trains! You’d of thought they would have sorted the system out by now, it’s been like this since they were introduced.
 

johntea

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It made me cringe when I travelled on one when the automated announcements made up the brand new destination of ‘Fizzinghole’

For a train company called ‘Northern’ to bugger that up so badly...
 

TUC

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The 331s do the same thing at Apperley Bridge on occasion, which is long enough for 4 carriage trains! You’d of thought they would have sorted the system out by now, it’s been like this since they were introduced.
This, and the other incorrect announcements, is really concerning me on a safety/passenger confusion level. It is clear Northern know about the incorrct announcements, yet seem to be doing nothing to sort it out.

I do want to give TOCs the benefit of the doubt, but the danger is that this just gets embedded in for years without correction. One would assume Northern would want their new trains to be shown to best effect and maximise the potential for increaed business.

I can only conclude that Northern really are incompetent or lazy or genuinely don't care about their customers. Which is it?
 

Neptune

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The last I heard, 195s weren't starting on the York service until 15th December - is that not now the case?
Blackpool - York, Leeds - Nottingham and Leeds - Lincoln booked for a mixture of 158’s and 195’s from the timetable change.
 

TUC

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It made me cringe when I travelled on one when the automated announcements made up the brand new destination of ‘Fizzinghole’

For a train company called ‘Northern’ to bugger that up so badly...
These all link together to a lack of attention to detail by Northern.
 

TUC

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The 0545 Hebden Bridge-Leeds was cancelled again this morning. Considering there is not another service for 45 mins, and it is the key service for connecting at Leeds for those who need to get to London for 0900, it is just about the worst service for both Leeds and longer distance workers to cancel at that time of the morning. Even when such cancellations cannot be avoided, there does seem to be a lack of strategic judgement as to which cancellation will have the least harmful effect.

Bizarrely, the stated reason for the cancellation was due to the inbound service being late which, given it is the first train of the day, seems inherently unlikely.
 
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SteveM70

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The 0545 Hebden Bridge-Leeds was cancelled again this morning. Considering there is not another service for 45 mins, and it is the key service for connecting at Leads for those who need to get to London for 0900, it is just about the worst service for both Leeds and longer distance workers to cancel at thst tome of morning. Even when such cancellations cannot be avoided, there does seem to be a lack of strategic judgement as to which cancellation will have the least harmful effect.

Bizarrely, the stated reason for the cancellation was due to the inbound service being late which, given it is the first train of the day, seems inherently unlikely.

NRE have the reason as more trains than usual needing maintenance, which makes the choice of the first train of the day as the one to cancel unfathomable. As you say, it’s a long wait till the next one. At least the cafe opens at 6
 

tpjm

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Guard will have to override ASDO to use SDO at Bradford because the unit won't know which platform it is in.
The issue, assuming everything is set up correctly, could be an Asdo database error whereby the info uploaded to Asdo is just incorrect, as in someone has entered incorrect information into the database as to the side the platform is located at Poulton, and Asdo tries to preempt the doors on the wrong side hence the red 'door not in use' lights lit on the platform side only. If Asdo couldn't be sure of its location then the red lights would be lit on both sides.

Forgive my lack of knowledge on the exact spec of the ASDO system in the Northern units, but I wasn't aware that you were protected by a 'wrong side release' with ASDO, which is what your post seems to suggest?

This, and the other incorrect announcements, is really concerning me on a safety/passenger confusion level. It is clear Northern know about the incorrct announcements, yet seem to be doing nothing to sort it out.

How do you know they are doing nothing about it?

Consider that any errors will need to be identified, understood and rectified in the database before they can even consider then getting the data to the train. Northern have a lot of these units to update so it would not be surprising to find several different versions of the PIS database running around. I'm speaking as someone involved in another new fleet that has some PIS glitches - simple issues with simple fixes don't always mean simple execution.
 
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