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Are Class 150s suitable for Liverpool-Manchester O Rd stopping services?

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Bletchleyite

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Oh, and if what I've heard is correct, the new timetable change on 15th December will see Northern replacing all it's 156's with not fit for purpose 150's on the Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road services!

What's "not fit for purpose" about doors-at-thirds commuter units on an urban/suburban local stopping service, provided they are 4 car sets? I'd argue it's 156s that aren't fit for that particular purpose.

They're old (so are 156s) but this is precisely the kind of work they were designed for.

195s would be better, though, as they could lop a good 5-10 minutes off an all stations service with their excellent acceleration.
 
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Mitchell Hurd

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What's "not fit for purpose" about doors-at-thirds commuter units on an urban/suburban local stopping service, provided they are 4 car sets? I'd argue it's 156s that aren't fit for that particular purpose.

They're old (so are 156s) but this is precisely the kind of work they were designed for.

195s would be better, though, as they could lop a good 5-10 minutes off an all stations service with their excellent acceleration.

I think 150's are fine for this work - the distance is shorter. I can see why 150's are replacing 156's on this busy line - faster boarding.

I remember when I was at Manchester Oxford Road waiting for the 15:38 TPExpress train to Leeds on the 30/09/19 and it was like the underground in terms of when the next trains from like platform 2 were.
 

DarloRich

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Are Class 150s suitable for Liverpool-Manchester O Rd stopping services?

Yes. Next question
 
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507021

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I think the 156s are the better units overall, but for this particular service, I think the 150s are more suitable due to their door positions.
 

childwallblues

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I think the 156s are the better units overall, but for this particular service, I think the 150s are more suitable due to their door positions.
LIV-MCO stoppers could be anything of 2 x 156, 2 x 150, a 156 +150 or just a single unit. Until recently you could also have 156 + 142, 150 + 142 or even 2 x 142. I believe a two car 195 made an appearance recently.
 

Starmill

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LIV-MCO stoppers could be anything of 2 x 156, 2 x 150, a 156 +150 or just a single unit. Until recently you could also have 156 + 142, 150 + 142 or even 2 x 142. I believe a two car 195 made an appearance recently.
Indeed! I had a pair of 156s on one from Manchester Oxford Road on Saturday and felt most blessed. On the way back I had a crush-loaded 2 car 150.
 

Kite159

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What's "not fit for purpose" about doors-at-thirds commuter units on an urban/suburban local stopping service, provided they are 4 car sets? I'd argue it's 156s that aren't fit for that particular purpose.

They're old (so are 156s) but this is precisely the kind of work they were designed for.

195s would be better, though, as they could lop a good 5-10 minutes off an all stations service with their excellent acceleration.

If the 195s had a higher density interior than they do, ie not so many table seats, something like a 387 interior with mostly airline seats. They remind me of the 172s in acceleration
 

Bletchleyite

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If the 195s had a higher density interior than they do, ie not so many table seats, something like a 387 interior with mostly airline seats. They remind me of the 172s in acceleration

They are basically a CAF version of the 172 (which isn't quite as good as electrification, but was a step change for the Snow Hill lines nonetheless), so that's no great surprise. The WM version will be a suburban layout, it will be interesting to see how they compare.

I did think Northern would have been better ordering suburban layout 195s as a direct 142/150 replacement (for lines like this, or the York-Leeds via Harrogate stopper[1]) then to use 170s and 158s on long distance work, to be fair.

[1] The 3-car 170s are a good fit for this line capacity wise, used a few this weekend, but they are a bit slow off the mark compared with even 150s and 142s due to the 100mph gearing.
 

a_c_skinner

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There are two basic questions for the passenger:

Is there a seat and is the train reliable and on time?

Then add in is there a working and clean toilet and is the unit well presented? (Clean and well presented, see the question there?)

Answer those and you've the answer to the original question.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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There are two basic questions for the passenger:

Is there a seat and is the train reliable and on time?

Then add in is there a working and clean toilet and is the unit well presented? (Clean and well presented, see the question there?)

Answer those and you've the answer to the original question.

If 2 coaches, highly likely not getting a seat at rush hour if you're catching it at a calling point rather than starting station.

Reliability of the Class 150's is still high I think - in fact in the sort of nearly 25 years I've used these (I'm 26), the only 150 (or Pacer if it was) that's let me down was a Transport for Wales one in January (23rd) this year - 14:16 from Cardiff Central to Penarth was cancelled and I was on the 14:46 Class 150.

Hopefully there's a working toilet. Interior cleanliness is I think generally more noticeable on the refurbished 150's with the blue seats and yellow rails (the 10:18 from Leeds to Lancaster on the 30/09/19 was a refurbished 150/1 and was very clean inside and I'd say nearly half full).
 

Aictos

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As that line is electrified, why run Class 150s when you have Class 319s?

Surely they’re a better fit?
 

thenorthern

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Yes in fact they would be quite good for that type of journey as they have 2+3 seating meaning more seats compared to most trains.
 

tbtc

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A four coach 150 would seem ideal for this stop/start service with lots of intermediate passengers - all about the breaking, the dwell times and the acceleration - just a shame the line wasn't wired up to permit EMU operation (since there are a number of EMU classes that are similar enough to a four coach 150).
 

Jonny

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A four coach 150 would seem ideal for this stop/start service with lots of intermediate passengers - all about the breaking, the dwell times and the acceleration - just a shame the line wasn't wired up to permit EMU operation (since there are a number of EMU classes that are similar enough to a four coach 150).

It is a rather long way round compared to the Eccles/Chat Moss/Parkside/Earlstown route and thus electrification would likely have cost more, at least on paper. On top of that, there was a section (Parkside to Earlstown) in the middle that was already wired as a WCML diversion. Also the infrastructure under the wires becomes effectively frozen in place once electrified due to the additional costs associated with ensuring that the wiring is changed matches the track layout.
 

fowler9

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A pair of 150's would be fine except most of the peak hour services are a single unit which wherever you stick the doors is a nightmare. I also don't see how 2+3 seating improves anything. Almost no one wants to sit in between two strangers in those cozy airline seats (I'd be suspicious of anyone who does, it's just not comfortable unless you are tiny), plus they must slow things down almost as much as doors at the end of the carriage.
 

js1000

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What's "not fit for purpose" about doors-at-thirds commuter units on an urban/suburban local stopping service, provided they are 4 car sets? I'd argue it's 156s that aren't fit for that particular purpose.

They're old (so are 156s) but this is precisely the kind of work they were designed for.

195s would be better, though, as they could lop a good 5-10 minutes off an all stations service with their excellent acceleration.
That route should be operated by 3/4 car 150s. The 195s/331s aren't great for the commuter routes between Liverpool and Oxford Road / Crewe to Manchester via Stockport which they now occasionally crop up on with the 2+2 seating layout.
 

notlob.divad

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It is a rather long way round compared to the Eccles/Chat Moss/Parkside/Earlstown route and thus electrification would likely have cost more, at least on paper. On top of that, there was a section (Parkside to Earlstown) in the middle that was already wired as a WCML diversion.

I'm not sure it was a distance thing as Lime Street to Allerton is already wired, as was Trafford Park through Castlefield. My understanding however was that it was a case of 'more bang for your buck' or another suitable phrase. By stringing up over Chats Moss you also enabled the Manchester - Scotland Services to run as EMUs as well as the Liverpool-Manchester. This was before Manchester - Preston was proposed. The intial project then turned into something else as it evolved into a solution for rolling stock cascade / PRM deadline problem and the scope was expanded, to include Manchester - Preston, Preston - Blackpool, Huyton - Wigan, and the other subsequently dropped infill schemes.

Also the infrastructure under the wires becomes effectively frozen in place once electrified due to the additional costs associated with ensuring that the wiring is changed matches the track layout.
Didn't seem to stop them re-modelling Huyton Junction post electrification.

Allerton - Trafford Park, would be one of my top priorities for any restarted electrification program. On current timetables it would allow all of Northern's services to switch to EMU (3tph each way) Leaving just the Cross Pennine to Sheffield and Nottingham having to remain Diesel or Bi-mode.

In the mean time 150s for Northern's stopping service, and 195s for the Semi-fast will be the best compromise.
 

fowler9

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If 2 coaches, highly likely not getting a seat at rush hour if you're catching it at a calling point rather than starting station.

Reliability of the Class 150's is still high I think - in fact in the sort of nearly 25 years I've used these (I'm 26), the only 150 (or Pacer if it was) that's let me down was a Transport for Wales one in January (23rd) this year - 14:16 from Cardiff Central to Penarth was cancelled and I was on the 14:46 Class 150.

Hopefully there's a working toilet. Interior cleanliness is I think generally more noticeable on the refurbished 150's with the blue seats and yellow rails (the 10:18 from Leeds to Lancaster on the 30/09/19 was a refurbished 150/1 and was very clean inside and I'd say nearly half full).
With greatest of respect if you are 26 and have been let down by 1 class 150 since you were 1 then you have been incredibly lucky. I've been let down by one already in Merseyside this week and it's Monday.
 

Nymanic

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Playing devil's advocate, the seated capacity of 150s and 156s are pretty much identical. Accurate figures are hard to find, and Wikipedia is not particularly reliable, but some PRM'd Northern 150s allegedly seat less than 130, compared to 140 or so on a 156. The marginally wider doorways of 150s are offset by an aisle that's generally too narrow to stand along. A 150 has the slight advantage of shortening the average distance between seat and door, but passengers are still having to shuffle on and off in single file.

With this in mind, I suspect that the 'wide doors' of many Mk3 DMUs and EMUs offer a bit less benefit than many assume. The vestibules on 150s, 319s and even 323s are only as wide as the doors themselves. Standing capacity is therefore modest, and the 'door area' isnt really wide enough for two passengers to enter/exit at once. It seems passenger flow can be improved by either employing wider doors (such as the class 185/350 etc), or widening the vestibule area (refurbished SWT 455s, and the Eversholt 321 demonstrator which freed up the deadlight zone behind the doors). The best designs do both, such as the cavernous vestibules found in 195s and 331s. They really do get people shifting.

Funnily enough, due to having only one toilet, a 4-car 331 (or 195) has about as many seats as a pair of 150s or 156s, even with all those tables! It's a pity that such an option is not on the horizon for weary travellers on the CLC.

If you could sacrifice a few seating rows on 150s, and widen the vestibule so it occupies all the space behind the door pockets, I think you'd see a noticeable improvement in loading/unloading times. However this would prove both costly and contentious. Failing that, I really struggle to see much difference in suitability between 150s and 156s on routes such as the CLC - even though the latter is much more 'civilised' to travel on, since you're not jostling for shoulder space on those crush-loaded runs.

But that's just my (somewhat over-articulated) stance.
 

Jamesrob637

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A four coach 150 would seem ideal for this stop/start service with lots of intermediate passengers - all about the breaking, the dwell times and the acceleration - just a shame the line wasn't wired up to permit EMU operation (since there are a number of EMU classes that are similar enough to a four coach 150).

Everything on that line needs 4 or more. Then two is occasionally forgivable when a unit goes tech. Nothing should be booked 2 or 3 anymore.
 

Furton

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Yes in fact they would be quite good for that type of journey as they have 2+3 seating meaning more seats compared to most trains.

No, the 2+3 seating on Northern 150's are horrific. No leg room, no place to work on your laptop whilst commuting and terrible posture support. 150's need to be the next class of trains sent to the scrap heap.
 

156420

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1655, 1719, 1755 from Liverpool to Oxford Rd booked 1 x 150 from the new TT. Not ideal.

The 2 x 150 formations seem to be concentrated on the busiest services in and out of Oxford Road, rather than Liverpool.
 

fowler9

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1655, 1719, 1755 from Liverpool to Oxford Rd booked 1 x 150 from the new TT. Not ideal.

The 2 x 150 formations seem to be concentrated on the busiest services in and out of Oxford Road, rather than Liverpool.
Yeah, in Liverpool we currently get loads of weird peak hour services like the 17:55 and 18:55 with single 142's or 150's to Oxford Road then the 19:19 being a pair of 156's and completely empty apart from the odd nutter who will decide to share a table at the front of the front carriage with me. Ha ha.
 
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prod_pep

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1655, 1719, 1755 from Liverpool to Oxford Rd booked 1 x 150 from the new TT. Not ideal.

The 2 x 150 formations seem to be concentrated on the busiest services in and out of Oxford Road, rather than Liverpool.

That really is outrageously poor. Regular commuters on those services have my utmost sympathy as it must be nightmarish on board.

In my view, 195s are the least suitable of the lot due to their table-heavy interiors. Theirs is an express train layout, unsuited to stopping services regardless of their superior acceleration.
 

Bletchleyite

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In my view, 195s are the least suitable of the lot due to their table-heavy interiors. Theirs is an express train layout, unsuited to stopping services regardless of their superior acceleration.

Yet with the standbacks and wide doors they are veritable people-eaters, even if many have to stand. Almost as good in that regard as 700s, which surprised me.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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With greatest of respect if you are 26 and have been let down by 1 class 150 since you were 1 then you have been incredibly lucky. I've been let down by one already in Merseyside this week and it's Monday.

Mind you, I've not commuted on them - journeys on 150's have been sort of occasional.
 

Matt_pool

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Commuting to and from Liverpool Lime Street on a single 150 is a nightmare! There are still a lot of unrefurbished units knocking about, some of which have 1/3 of a carriage taken up by a bike rack/luggage rack on one side, and a long bench seat on the other side! It really is like a cattle wagon travelling on one of these during rush hour, even for a relatively short journey of 15-20 minutes.

You can hear everyone on the platform groan when a single 150 pulls into the platform, because most people know that they won't get a seat; whereas if it was a single 156 pretty much everyone gets a seat.

As the 150 crawls past Edge Hill sidings and we see all the newly delivered 195's and 331's lined up I've actually overheard people say to each other "don't worry, not long until they are introduced on this line"!

I want to say out loud "sorry mate, no chance of that happening", but my nose is stuck under someones arm pit!

Then yesterday's 19.56 from Lime Street was a 156+150 which was relatively empty, apart from the first carriage closest to the station concourse which was half full of people who were too lazy to walk past the first door they got to!

Don't even get me started on the single 195's - namely 195 001 and 195 002 - they have started using on the Liverpool to Man Airport service! I was unfortunate to get 195 002 to and from Man Piccadilly on Saturday and on both journeys everyone was rammed in like sardines!
 

AMD

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Didn't seem to stop them re-modelling Huyton Junction post electrification.
Going off topic, Huyton wasn't a remodelling post electrification, it was the completion of the 4th track, which was generally already planned in apart from one new mast.
 
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