• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TPE Class 397 ('Nova 2') construction and updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

kc_

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2019
Messages
132
Location
North West England
I caught the 1626 Glasgow service at Manchester Piccadilly last night. Got on reasonably ok and bagged a seat because I was near a door when it stopped. Lots waiting at the departure end of P14 got on coach E, the first class one. I was in D which was standing only by the time the train left, despite at least 5 announcements that A was pretty empty at the other end but no one moved. Platform display showed 5 coaches but said first class was in coach C.

Sounds like 1M90 is still going to be packed when 397 operated despite extra capacity. Are the trains actually packed, or does the inter-city layout give that illusion due to passengers bunching up in few carriages? I imagine Saturday was genuinely busy partly due to people catching that service to try out the 397s.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

snail

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2011
Messages
1,848
Location
t'North
Sounds like 1M90 is still going to be packed when 397 operated despite extra capacity. Are the trains actually packed, or does the inter-city layout give that illusion due to passengers bunching up in few carriages? I imagine Saturday was genuinely busy partly due to people catching that service to try out the 397s.
Based on my limited sample of one train I would say yes. There are more seats than a 350 but those were full and standing by Oxford Road so it should be better but not by much. There is also the issue of people unwilling to walk past the invisible force field at the vestibule doors to stand in the centre of a carriage. Having first class at one end doesn't help because it is often unclear which way round the train will be so you get extra loading in the standard coach at that end. I think it is going to be bad when seat reservations start and people are trying to push past the vestibules to get to their coach.
 

kc_

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2019
Messages
132
Location
North West England
Based on my limited sample of one train I would say yes. There are more seats than a 350 but those were full and standing by Oxford Road so it should be better but not by much. There is also the issue of people unwilling to walk past the invisible force field at the vestibule doors to stand in the centre of a carriage. Having first class at one end doesn't help because it is often unclear which way round the train will be so you get extra loading in the standard coach at that end. I think it is going to be bad when seat reservations start and people are trying to push past the vestibules to get to their coach.

It's a shame the platform PIS can't reliably indicate coach order every time. It'd also help IMO if the platforms had markings to indicate approximate location of each carriage, though it's fairly obvious why this isn't already done.

I haven't been on a 397 myself yet, but I already get the feeling I'll miss the 350s! They had it just right with 8 car 350 formations before the incident with 350403.
 

Sleeperwaking

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2018
Messages
166
I managed to get the 0810 on Saturday from Manchester Airport as far as Preston (fortunately we'd already planned to disembark there, seeing as that's where it hit the queue caused by the OLE issues at Penrith).

I didn't notice anything particularly wrong with the ride (or at least it didn't seem noticeably better or worse than what I usually experience) - we chose table seats in Coach A near the cab end. PIS (both scrolling and TV-like displays) seemed to work fine except it didn't distinguish Bolton as a "pick up only" stop and treated it like a normal stop. Felt like it had good acceleration on departure. I thought the seats were a bit firm but not uncomfortable. My other half's comment was that "they certainly encourage good posture"; he also managed to bang a knee on the table support (he was sat in the aisle seat). He did comment that the sensor for the water in the toilet was too close to the dryer (the tap started running while he was drying his hands), but his hands do resemble giant shovels so it could be fine for people with normal sized hands. Both of us thought that the overall ambience in standard was really nice, quite light and airy. We gave up our table at Bolton to a family of four (the service wasn't full as such but there were a lot of part occupied tables) to have a walk through the unit - I remember Coach D had a lot of unoccupied airline seats. Don't remember being thrown about much on the walk through, just took a moment to twig where the door open buttons were when moving between vehicles. Someone at TPE kindly let us try out the first class seats for 10 minutes on the run into Preston and they were nice and comfy. My other half had fun trying out the reclining mechanism - it descended into full recline quite swiftly with a bit of a thunk, but he didn't have any issues putting it back into the upright position.

In any case, we both enjoyed the trip overall - would be nice to try out the full journey to Glasgow or Edinburgh at some point. Admittedly I'm not the sort of person who really *notices* things unless they're really intrusive (like rattling ceiling panels on 170s), so I'll leave that sort of in depth critique to others. Our return journey was a bit more fraught - standing room only on a crush loaded 3-car 195 (195120) which I assume was one of the first trains through from north of Preston towards Manchester, but it did somehow manage to swallow everyone waiting to get on. We were suitably fortified by a fried breakfast for that experience anyway.
 

td97

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2017
Messages
1,292
It's a shame the platform PIS can't reliably indicate coach order every time. It'd also help IMO if the platforms had markings to indicate approximate location of each carriage, though it's fairly obvious why this isn't already done.
Zones 1, 2, 3... on the platform and the platform screen states zone 1 for coach A, zone 2 for coach B... or if train in reverse formation (updated by control or guard), zone 1 for coach E...
Really not a difficult system to implement or understand and works with any stock too
 

tpjm

Member
Joined
25 Jan 2019
Messages
484
Location
The North
It's a shame the platform PIS can't reliably indicate coach order every time. It'd also help IMO if the platforms had markings to indicate approximate location of each carriage, though it's fairly obvious why this isn't already done.

Zones 1, 2, 3... on the platform and the platform screen states zone 1 for coach A, zone 2 for coach B... or if train in reverse formation (updated by control or guard), zone 1 for coach E...
Really not a difficult system to implement or understand and works with any stock too

Coming soon. Should be running already at TPE stations but there’s a union-style ‘issue’ with the train crew updating it (or not, as is currently the case) if it’s wrong.
 

td97

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2017
Messages
1,292
Coming soon. Should be running already at TPE stations but there’s a union-style ‘issue’ with the train crew updating it (or not, as is currently the case) if it’s wrong.
Good to know. Will there be an opportunity to implement this at stations operated by other TOCs?
 

tpjm

Member
Joined
25 Jan 2019
Messages
484
Location
The North
Good to know. Will there be an opportunity to implement this at stations operated by other TOCs?

And NR operated stations like MAN?

I think the depends on the type of system they’re running. I know Northern’s new station CIS system is particularly inconvenient to get standard industry products to talk to it. Network Rail, I’m not sure. They’re already half way there with the graphical illustration of the number of coaches. The issue lies with the way Genius interprets (or to the point, doesn’t interpret) coach formation. Genius, MyIntegrale and the TPE CIS are all made by Worldline so there’s a more collaborative working approach between the systems. I don’t really know enough about the ins and outs to talk any more on it.

With Class 397 running up the WCML, a lot of the infrastructure is already there for the zoning of the Pendo coaches so it would be ideal to get the VTWC systems to know the formation and orientation.
 

timothyw9

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2019
Messages
59
I caught the 1626 Glasgow service at Manchester Piccadilly last night. Got on reasonably ok and bagged a seat because I was near a door when it stopped. Lots waiting at the departure end of P14 got on coach E, the first class one. I was in D which was standing only by the time the train left, despite at least 5 announcements that A was pretty empty at the other end but no one moved. Platform display showed 5 coaches but said first class was in coach C.

This is the problem at Piccadilly on P14, passengers seem adamant they're going to board a certain coach. Except during disruption (last Friday for example), if a 6-car 185 turns up and both sets are in use, people seem to ignore the train at the rear and all cram on the front train.

I think First Class Coach C is manually inputted by Network Rail, as until now, that is where First Class was.
 

_toommm_

Established Member
Joined
8 Jul 2017
Messages
5,846
Location
Yorkshire
This is the problem at Piccadilly on P14, passengers seem adamant they're going to board a certain coach. Except during disruption (last Friday for example), if a 6-car 185 turns up and both sets are in use, people seem to ignore the train at the rear and all cram on the front train.

I think First Class Coach C is manually inputted by Network Rail, as until now, that is where First Class was.

Half of the time it's wrong anyway. I (and a few others) just look at the electrical cover on the coupler - if it's coloured yellow, First Class is at that end.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,677
Germans seem to manage the screens just fine with platform zones clearly showing where each carriage will be! Very easy to use and understand.
 

BMIFlyer

Member
Joined
13 Mar 2017
Messages
723
Sounds like 1M90 is still going to be packed when 397 operated despite extra capacity. Are the trains actually packed, or does the inter-city layout give that illusion due to passengers bunching up in few carriages? I imagine Saturday was genuinely busy partly due to people catching that service to try out the 397s.

If it hadn’t been for ticket acceptance with Northern, half of the passengers in that train wouldn’t have boarded.
 

Roger B

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2018
Messages
893
Location
Gatley
I was on 1M90 yesterday (04/12). It was pathed for a 110mph 350, so I was disappointed when 185 119 came into view at GLC. I’d say it was only 75% full on leaving GLC, and less than 50% after LAN.

The incoming service, 1S51, had started from Preston. TPE staff at GLC told me that that was because it hadn’t had sufficient fuel loaded earlier in the day. 1S51 was 42 mins down at Shieldmuir, and at this stage was looking to be in GLC by c 15.20. But then it was held outside Motherwell for a while (why?), which caused it to arrive into GLC at 15.30, 52 down on the WTT.

I’d expected 1M90 to be put out after 1M15, the 15.40 VT to EUS (as did VT and TE staff), but no, after a fairly swift turnaround we were off at 15.40, with the 1M15 following us, as we stopped at Motherwell and Lockerbie. At Carlisle 1M90 was paused to allow 1M15 to overtake. 1M90 then lost further time to PRE, and to BON, and more into MAN, arriving at 19.13, where it was terminated. The next service to MIA was 1Y65, which would have got me to MIA at 19.44, but as I had TPE ticket, was told that had to take next TPE from MAN, so had to wait for 1P84, which left MAN at 19.36, arriving MIA 19.49.

What surprised me was that TPE didn’t arrange for passengers to use other services from MAN to MIA. If 1Y65 hadn’t lost a further 4 mins from MAN, I would have arrived into MIA at 19.40, less than an hour late, and therefore only claiming 50% refund through delay repay, whereas now I’ll be claiming 100%.

Both the 07.10 (1S35) from MIA to GLC and 1M90 were worked by refurbished 185s. Whilst I like the décor generally, and seat spacing, comfort and alignment with windows, I’m not a fan of the raised edge around the tables, which I find makes them less comfortable / easy to use.
 

timothyw9

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2019
Messages
59
With regards to an airport service being terminated at Piccadilly, IMO the unwritten rule is just to board the next available service. Quite often if a TPE services terminates then passengers just board the Northern (normally right behind it) and vice versa if Northern cancel a service passengers board the TPE. Not an official thing, but I somewhat doubt a guard is going to check tickets between MAN and MIA, especially if a large amount of passengers join at MAN.
 

GrimShady

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2016
Messages
1,740
Managed a ride on 397 007 today, 1M97 1212 Edinburgh-Manchester Airport, between Carlisle and Preston.
Nice train, terrible ride.
The train is an enhanced version of CAF's 331, with just the same poor and noisy ride.
The interior is really nice, much like a refurbished 185 with a more generous layout, and very similar to a Nova 3.
Even the "poor" seats (airline style with no window alignment) have some sort of view.
But the ride...
The WCML track is as good as it comes, and there were periods of decent running and periods of unacceptably shaky riding - jiggly I'd call it.
Particularly noisy over pointwork, of which there is a lot more around Manchester than there is on the northern WCML.
It's impossible to read in those conditions and an hour or so was more than enough for me, and I'm quite a stoic while travelling generally.
For what it's worth, the worst sections were the straight-ish sections north of Penrith, and again south of Oxenholme.
It seemed rather better when negotiating pronounced curves of which there are many through the fells.
The ride was, frankly, nothing like as good as on the rock-solid 390 I also used today over the same track, or on a 350 or 185 for that matter.

The PIS is the same as in Nova 3.
Initially it was stuck on "This is Manchester Oxford Road, next stop Manchester Piccadilly", but at Lancaster it burst into life with full info, except it missed out the set-down stop at Bolton.
It can certainly accelerate fast out of stations, but it didn't make any dent in the 10 minutes or so lateness from Carlisle, against the 350 schedule.
By Oxenholme we were holding up the following Pendolino.
All 5 coaches were well filled, and nice to have end doors. The toilets looked smart.
Oddly, the carpet throughout was a complete mess of dirt and debris and what looked like melting ice pieces.
I can only think this was walked aboard by passengers during the day from icy platforms, but no other train I was on was as bad.
As a result it did not have the feeling of a brand new train.

Faced with a choice of train, I would prefer a 390 every time, and it would be a toss-up with a Voyager - the 397 has a better layout, but a worse ride.
I really hope First Trenitalia don't choose the 397 for their Voyager replacement.
It doesn't feel like a proper intercity train which eats up the miles while you doze off.

That's kinda disappointing to hear. I had high hopes for these units.
 

GrimShady

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2016
Messages
1,740
You do surprise me! I haven't spent an awful lot of time on Mk4s but they've always been decent when I have, including the stretch between Edinburgh and Newcastle a few months ago. I've heard about the ride quality of the 397s being rather "CAF-like" but as I only travelled between the airport and Piccadilly I haven't really seen it for myself, looking forward to spending a lot more time on them in the not-so distant future

There is a particular bad section between Edinburgh and Newcastle where the MkIV feels very dodgy whilst being propelled probably speed dependent. AFAIK its south of the Berwick Bridge. Aside from that I have no issues with them at, maybe the very slightly annoying aircon drone.
 
Last edited:

a_c_skinner

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
1,576
I cannot recall if I actually posted that none of the new trains for Northern England would prove remotely big enough or couldn't be bothered as it was self evident. I will reserve judgement until all the new fleets are in traffic, but I expect to be proved right.
 

XC90

Member
Joined
4 Jun 2015
Messages
229
100% agree with Grimshady. The ride quality isn't very good. Avanti have chosen class 800 for voyager replacement so good news there.
 

Sleeperwaking

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2018
Messages
166
100% agree with Grimshady. The ride quality isn't very good. Avanti have chosen class 800 for voyager replacement so good news there.
I'm fairly sure Grimshady was referring to the ride on Mk4s between Edinburgh and Newcastle, as that's not a Class 397 route and he mentions that it's when propelled... However, LNW-GW Joint posted earlier about not liking the ride. I didn't find any issues personally, but only rode from Manchester Airport to Preston, not the whole route to Glasgow or Edinburgh.
 

GrimShady

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2016
Messages
1,740
I'm fairly sure Grimshady was referring to the ride on Mk4s between Edinburgh and Newcastle, as that's not a Class 397 route and he mentions that it's when propelled... However, LNW-GW Joint posted earlier about not liking the ride. I didn't find any issues personally, but only rode from Manchester Airport to Preston, not the whole route to Glasgow or Edinburgh.

Correct, post amended for clarity.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,556
Location
Mold, Clwyd
With regards to an airport service being terminated at Piccadilly, IMO the unwritten rule is just to board the next available service. Quite often if a TPE services terminates then passengers just board the Northern (normally right behind it) and vice versa if Northern cancel a service passengers board the TPE. Not an official thing, but I somewhat doubt a guard is going to check tickets between MAN and MIA, especially if a large amount of passengers join at MAN.

That doesn't always work.
I watched a couple from Oxenholme with Northern Advances to Manchester Airport have to pay again on a TPE service, after their Northern service was cancelled.
No quarter offered.
 

ScotRail158725

Established Member
Joined
27 Nov 2018
Messages
2,170
sorry if ive missed it but can someone tell me what the Class 397 Edinburgh diagrams are on weekdays and Saturdays?
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
5,209
It's a shame the platform PIS can't reliably indicate coach order every time. It'd also help IMO if the platforms had markings to indicate approximate location of each carriage, though it's fairly obvious why this isn't already done.

I haven't been on a 397 myself yet, but I already get the feeling I'll miss the 350s! They had it just right with 8 car 350 formations before the incident with 350403.

I've been on quite a few where 5 is perfect though. 4 complete standard class coaches not having to walk through First awkwardly situated halfway through the train!
 

MDB1images

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2018
Messages
654
Been very handy at moving the crowds heading for Edinburgh Xmas markets thus far.
Don't get me wrong you will still get crowding on Anglo-Scots in December as it's the busiest time(there is a reason BR ran load 10 Class 85 hauled additionals) with Edinburgh trains particularly busy since the Xmas market concept took off.
With the cameras it's easier to move those who stand/ block a coach thinking the train is full by directing them to coaches with seats.

When the trains have run they have been well received by passengers.
Couple of issues with the heating flow in Coach B and D(a fix is planned with a temp solution in place)is the only issue that's raised with any consistently (too hot/cold)but regular passengers point out compared to the 350s it's a big improvement.

Early days and improvements still to be had but slow but promising start.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,556
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service looks to be only half-delivered at the timetable change.
Many cancellations until 5 January against the published timetable.
https://tpexpress.co.uk/travel-updates/december-2019-timetable-changes
The following services will not run:

Monday to Saturday until 04 January


0520 to Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh

0824, 0924, 1024, 1224, 1524 & 1824 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh

1925 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, and Newcastle

2024 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester-le-Street and Newcastle

2308 to Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York

Saturdays until 04 January

1824 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, and Newcastle

Sundays until 05 January

1124, 1224, 1525 & 1625 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh

2108 to Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester-le-Street and Newcastle

2308 to Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York

TPE are still promoting the new Liverpool-Glasgow services, so they must be running - but with what stock, 185, 350 or 397?

PS This should really have gone on the Nova 1 or generic TPE thread...
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top