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Northern Railway Arriva 'Scrooge you' to customer

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MarkLynch

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Thought people may want to checkout Arriva's Northern Railway attitude to customer relations, its an interesting read... URL at:

https://www.marklynch.com/northern-railway-scrooge-you-to-customer-with-1-refund-cheque/
On 14th Sept 2019, Mark Lynch and his partner decided to travel by Northern Railway from Broadgreen train station to their destination at Liverpool Lime Street. On arrival, they were overcharged £1 for their tickets. Later at home, and some research later, Mr Lynch, complained at the companies mistake. Two months later - after various correspondence, anxiety and time on his part - he received a cheque for the 'grand sum of £1'. Not even a full refund for £7.20, for which caused him stress, or a goodwill gesture from Northern Railway.
 
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Tazi Hupefi

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Very dodgy passenger behaviour, unusual too.

Broad Green has a fully staffed ticket office, scheduled to be open from first to last train, and TVMs.

Why would a passenger get a Promise to Pay?

Also, the laughable anxiety and stress etc... It's one to send to Angry People in Local Newspapers!! Compensation culture at its worst.

Good on Northern paying out the £1 though, good to see they seemed to have applied a lot of discretion to the customer, no Penalties or Prosecution.
 

Realfish

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''Northern Railway were approached for their reaction, and the option to remove this story as a goodwill gesture for a refund of £7.20 to Mr Lynch, but did not reply.''

Sounds like a blackmail attempt! If Mr Lynch got to the station before the train was pulling in, he wouldn't have needed to use a P2P. I'm with Northern for once.
 

DaleCooper

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Northern Railway were approached for their reaction, and the option to remove this story as a goodwill gesture for a refund of £7.20 to Mr Lynch, but did not reply.

That looks like extortion
noun: extortion; plural noun: extortions the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

I thought the use of third person was a bit weird.
 

transmanche

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Thought people may want to checkout Arriva's Northern Railway attitude to customer relations, its an interesting read...
  • Referring to yourself in the third person.
  • Claiming to be 'stressed' and 'anxious' by a simple clerical error of £1.
  • Using "should of" instead of "should have".
I don't think this makes Northern look like Scrooge.
 
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Starmill

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I'm impressed that Northern were convinced to provide a refund after overcharging the customer.

When I was overcharged for a ticket by a guard, they wouldn't refund me the difference at first pass, explaining that it was my responsibility to ensure that I had the correct ticket for my journey. They're a diabolical company in my view who get away with all sorts of things, and their customer relations are frequently wrong.
 

Starmill

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Very dodgy passenger behaviour, unusual too.
Sounds like you've just made this up.
Broad Green has a fully staffed ticket office, scheduled to be open from first to last train, and TVMs.
So you know for sure that the ticket office window was open at the time the customer arrived?
Why would a passenger get a Promise to
Why might they not? The company have gone out of their way to offer them where no others do. They presumably weren't set up simply for a giggle?
Also, the laughable anxiety and stress etc...
Bet you're great fun at dinner parties.
Why aren't Promise to Pays turned off when the ticket office is open? The old Permits to Travel were.
I hesitate to use the word 'duh' but... for the same reason as the machine exists in the first place? In case the ticket office window isn't open? Hardly a rare occurance outside of morning peak hours?

As to whether the specific ticket vending machine can issue the so-called Promise to Pay notices, it varies with no pattern that I have spotted. Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly can't issue them even at times of day when the ticket offices are closed. Some can issue them at all times. The machine at Garforth didn't used to issue them but then began to do so after customer complaints. There does not seem to be any way for staff to find out which specific machines can issue them and which cannot, in real time or even in general.

Some may have times set up to them to correspond with booking office hours, but quite unlike the old permit to travel machines, they probably cannot be controlled locally, so there's no easy way to enable or disable them while ticket office staff go on break, go out to do litter picking or anything else.

The ticket machines at stations served by Northern within their Penalty Fares area that are run by other companies have never had the option added, so frankly the scheme is quite unenforceable. For example, Lincoln, Brough and Crewe don't have any machines that can dispense these, despite Penalty Fares ostensibly being charged from those stations (and many more).
 
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yorkie

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Northern state the full range of tickets will be offered if the wait is 3 minutes or more at off peak times.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/news/latest-news/955-save-time-with-northern
You should always leave yourself enough time to purchase your ticket allowing for a potential queue at busy times. It is unreasonable for you to queue longer than five minutes in peak time and three minutes in off peak time. Where this is the case our conductors will apply discretion and sell the full range of tickets on board. ...

Northern do not appear to be claiming that queuing times were shorter than this.

Northern did accept their staff behaved incorrectly.

Northern are known for being stingy; they hold the current known record lowest Delay Repay payout of 3 pence: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/delay-repay-is-this-a-record-payout.194421/

Sounds like a blackmail attempt! If Mr Lynch got to the station before the train was pulling in, he wouldn't have needed to use a P2P. I'm with Northern for once.
Do you have any idea how long the queues can be at some Northern stations? Northern specifically allow people to board the train if queuing times are greater than 3 minutes.
 

clagmonster

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So you know for sure that the ticket office window was open at the time the customer arrived?
The passenger's linked article states:
"a queue at the ticket office meant they would miss the train"
Thus is appears clear that the booking office was indeed open. However, given the promise to pay facility was available, I think it most unreasonable for Northern to charge anything other than the fare stated on the TVM, hence the refund would appear to be correct. The wording on the P2P is quite clear that the passenger may pay at their destination, in this case Lime St.

Going forward, I would suggest Northern would be well advised to make sure that ticket vending machines offer promise to pay coupons if and only if there is no open booking office available. This could well include giving staff local control at stations with a lone staff member who is likely to leave the booking office closed at unpredictable times when going on breaks or carrying out other duties. I would also suggest to help revenue staff further down the line, the P2P notices include details of the fare that the passenger has promised to pay.
 

MarkLynch

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Thanks for everyone's constructive comments.

Just to answer some of them:

TAZI HUPEFI said:
Very dodgy passenger behaviour, unusual too
I agree its unusual behaviour, because I'm standing up for ordinary people against Rail companies who rip off customers every year with ticket increases, whilst giving a sub-standard service.

TAZI HUPEFI said:
Broad Green has a fully staffed ticket office, scheduled to be open from first to last train."
I agree, this is supposed to be the case. But many times, the office has been closed, and not staffed (and not because of helping with disabled duties etc). Off the top of my head, 4 times within the last month, at busy periods.
Spent 25 minutes at Lime Street, arguing with two members of staff, and getting stressed, that we were being overcharged, but they would not have it. We were correct!
Sent several emails about my refund, over two months, with 1 apology that the representative was ill, fair enough, but does no-one take on her case load or is she the only rep for Northern Railway.

TAZI HUPEFI said:
Compensation culture at its worst
I wanted compensation for the tickets only, at the very least for the time, effort and yes... stress!
I have been offered money for the story by two nationals, I am not accepting any money for the story, only putting it out there, in the hope that Northern Railway take note.

TAZI HUPEFI said:
Good on Northern paying out the £1 though, good to see they seemed to have applied a lot of discretion to the customer, no Penalties or Prosecution
You missed the point entirely. And for your information, Northern accepted responsibility.

Realfish said:
Sounds like a blackmail attempt!
I gave Northern Railway one week to pull the story, and refund the tickets for everything that went on - to avoid the bad publicity for them - just wanted the refund.
They didn't even reply to the email I sent them about it, and also I openly put at the bottom of the story my intentions. I can't be more open about it than that.


DaleCooper said:
Comment: "That looks like extortion. I thought the use of third person was a bit weird."
Didn't want any money from papers, just ticket price for above mentioned. I used to work for the newspapers, third person is because if you write a story for a journalist, it is more likely to get published.
 
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Fawkes Cat

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However, given the promise to pay facility was available, I think it most unreasonable for Northern to charge anything other than the fare stated on the TVM, hence the refund would appear to be correct

I think we can all agree on that. Would anyone like to comment on the OP's view that they should also be compensated?
 

30907

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I would have thought a couple of Northern free tickets would be appropriate.

We still don't know how come the OP was overcharged.

@MarkLynch: rightly or wrongly, forum members tend to be suspicious of press stories, even if they apparently refer to the poster.
 

transmanche

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Would anyone like to comment on the OP's view that they should also be compensated?

I would have thought a couple of Northern free tickets would be appropriate.
Same, I would have thought a couple of Northern's 'go anywhere on our network' tickets were appropriate but the attitude test would have to be taken into account too.

If the OP had used the same kind of language/grammar/tone in his communications with Northern as he has in his blog post and I was the person on the receiving end then I would count that as failing the attitude test. Personally, I would then just send him the absolute minimum whereas someone who wasn't being such an idiot about it would also receive a goodwill gesture.
 
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packermac

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I think we can all agree on that. Would anyone like to comment on the OP's view that they should also be compensated?
From a non industry (i.e. Joe Public) view.
They were overcharged by a £1
They were not wrongly told they would have to pay a penalty fare or were going to be prosecuted.
They wrote to Northern, who after some time, (but it was only £1 so not exactly a priority) they received the overpayment back.
Where is the stress and anxiety in that and the time involved in pursuing it was purely of their own making.
Get over it!
 

PBarnesHST

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Where is the stress and anxiety in that and the time involved in pursuing it was purely of their own making.
Get over it!

Having worked in customer service for the best part of a decade (make no mistake I’m not trying to claim any stripes for that) I can tell the stress and anxiety almost definitely originates from the expectation of greater goodwill that didn’t materialise.

Frankly I don’t see the issue either, customer overpaid £1 and the customer was refunded £1. Why do they deserve a full refund for their ticket on that basis? If a customer came to me to say we’d overcharged them for a packet of ham I wouldn’t refund their entire shopping bill, and if they threatened to take such triviality to a newspaper I’d find it hard not to laugh them away.
 

6Gman

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Since there are 4 trains per hour from Broad Green to Liverpool on weekdays could I suggest joining the queue, buying your tickets and catching the next train in future?
 

maniacmartin

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if there was a queue in excess of the acceptable waiting time then the OP is perfectly entitled to board as per the link to Northern’s website above.

If staff wasted 25 minutes of time and overcharged despite being told that they were charging the wrong price, meaning that the OP had to waste even more time chasing them then the OP should be entitled to compensation for that wasted time.

It’s Northern’s fault if their staff aren’t trained properly, not the OP’s. And it’s Northern’s actions that caused any bad attitude form the OP.
 

WesternLancer

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Thought people may want to checkout Arriva's Northern Railway attitude to customer relations, its an interesting read... URL at:

https://www.marklynch.com/northern-railway-scrooge-you-to-customer-with-1-refund-cheque/
As a new poster to this forum you may not know of the site BRfares.com which is the fares database - worth bookmarking so when staff don't seem to know the price of the fare you want you can show it to them. Helps to show them the info when they are trying to charge the wrong sum - with luck.
 

Bletchleyite

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As a new poster to this forum you may not know of the site BRfares.com which is the fares database - worth bookmarking so when staff don't seem to know the price of the fare you want you can show it to them. Helps to show them the info when they are trying to charge the wrong sum - with luck.

I think in this case they knew full well what the Off Peak fare was, they just didn't think it was appropriate. Which if the ticket office at their origin was open, it indeed wasn't, "Promise to Pay" or not.
 

scrapy

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if there was a queue in excess of the acceptable waiting time then the OP is perfectly entitled to board as per the link to Northern’s website above.
The article states that as Mr Lynch was approaching the station the train was pulling in. So unless the train was early I would suggest that Mr Lynch had not allowed enough time to buy a ticket before the train was due. Mr Lynch does not say the queue was excessive just that the queue prevented him from buying a ticket.

It's obviously a flaw in the system that promise to pay notices are available when the ticket office is open, so as the option was there for p2p notice I think Northern were right to honour the price quoted, but in my view they should not be available when the ticket office is open and then Mr Lynch could have correctly been charged a Penalty Fare or Anytime single as per NRCOT.
 
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xc170

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Stress and anxiety over £1...

Attention seeking at it's worst.
 
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If you are stressed over a pound Mark, give me your PayPal details and I’ll send you a quid.
That is pathetic.
 

Bletchleyite

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Stress and anxiety over £1...

Attention seeking at it's worst.

While it's my view that Northern charged correctly in this case as the subjects passed an open ticket office to board where they could have paid, businesses should charge the correct sum, and yes, if they overcharged by £1 that should not be taken lightly.

I'm sure Northern would be happy to prosecute over £1, so why should their passengers not take it equally seriously?
 

jumble

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From a non industry (i.e. Joe Public) view.
They were overcharged by a £1
They were not wrongly told they would have to pay a penalty fare or were going to be prosecuted.
They wrote to Northern, who after some time, (but it was only £1 so not exactly a priority) they received the overpayment back.
Where is the stress and anxiety in that and the time involved in pursuing it was purely of their own making.
Get over it!

In addition the observation that Northern had incurred admin cost and so should have refunded £7.20 instead of £1.00 makes no sense to me as the two things are unrelated
 

jumble

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In addition the observation that Northern had incurred admin cost and so should have refunded £7.20 instead of £1.00 makes no sense to me as the two things are unrelated
Talk about a first world problem
 

WesternLancer

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While it's my view that Northern charged correctly in this case as the subjects passed an open ticket office to board where they could have paid, businesses should charge the correct sum, and yes, if they overcharged by £1 that should not be taken lightly.

I'm sure Northern would be happy to prosecute over £1, so why should their passengers not take it equally seriously?
I completely agree with this.

Not long ago i picked up a low priced item at John Lewis. Shelf label stated it was about £4, at till it came up as £5. I pointed out that the till was not charging the price on the shelf and was refunded the £1 (on a gift card as seemingly the only way they could do it).

And it does not really matter if it's a low value - if the fare is as stated isn't that about a 15% overcharge.

It's a shame but some firms seem to only respond to bad publicity (instead of say having mystery customers to tests systems) so I can see why OP wrote a story about it. In the cut and paste world of local journalism now - they have hardly any reporters these days it seems - it might get printed and the OP might get paid a £ for it. Readers would draw their own conclusions...

Rightly or wrongly there is clearly a lot of anger out there towards Arriva Northern (demos at Manchester the other day were in national news) so you can see why these sorts of things make a story on a slow news day...
 

xc170

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While it's my view that Northern charged correctly in this case as the subjects passed an open ticket office to board where they could have paid, businesses should charge the correct sum, and yes, if they overcharged by £1 that should not be taken lightly.

I'm sure Northern would be happy to prosecute over £1, so why should their passengers not take it equally seriously?

Yes, I agree with what you're saying in principle.

But let's put things into perspective, it's £1, if I was in this position, I'd certainly question it, but I wouldn't stress or suffer anxiety over it, we're not talking about hugs sums of money here, it's £1...
 

island

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Not long ago i picked up a low priced item at John Lewis. Shelf label stated it was about £4, at till it came up as £5. I pointed out that the till was not charging the price on the shelf and was refunded the £1 (on a gift card as seemingly the only way they could do it).
This is itself a gesture of goodwill. Retailers are not obliged to honour prices on shelf-edge labels.
 
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