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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Steven_G

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can I ask a few questions for the knowledgeable logical thinkers....

I haven’t heard of a classic set in service for a while. Are they perhaps not out because of the waste tank directive? Maybe union pressure?

wabtec must have stopped work on new sets, if they had continued their yard would be full of refurbs waiting to go north. I know it’s been said about snagging stuff that’s already been done but this is a long long time since anything new came north.

Anyone able to shed light on the reason so few refurbs are in service? We’ve all heard about snagging but there has been plenty time for that. Is it the power cars and/or the carriages that are proving unreliable?

thanks in advance
 
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PG

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wabtec must have stopped work on new sets, if they had continued their yard would be full of refurbs waiting to go north. I know it’s been said about snagging stuff that’s already been done but this is a long long time since anything new came north.
You raise a valid question - where are all these Mk3 coaches located at the moment?

Either refurbished or not they must be somewhere - what capacity is the Wabtec facility at Doncaster, could it hold 5+ refurbished sets?

I'm away to throw the proverbial spanner in the works with this:
The HSTs are leased to Scotrail by Angel who in turn presumably pay Wabtec to undertake the refurbishment.

Since we know that Scotrail are unhappy with the condition of the refurbished sets, have Angel withheld payment for sets that are supposedly complete such that Wabtec won't release them for delivery?!!
 
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I was pleasantly surprised to see a HST turn up on an Inverness to Aberdeen service yesterday. Nice as it was it felt a little overkill for this route. Surely a modern DMU would offer cheaper running costs (although doubtless for a greater purchase or leasing price).
 

Speed43125

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You raise a valid question - where are all these Mk3 coaches located at the moment?

Either refurbished or not they must be somewhere - what capacity is the Wabtec facility at Doncaster, could it hold 5+ refurbished sets?

I'm away to throw the proverbial spanner in the works with this:
The HSTs are leased to Scotrail by Angel who in turn presumably pay Wabtec to undertake the refurbishment.

Since we know that Scotrail are unhappy with the condition of the refurbished sets, have Angel withheld payment for sets that are supposedly complete such that Wabtec won't release them for delivery?!!
The GWR HSTGTI thread suggests they are quite close to releasing a Great Western HST so they presumably are still doing something.
I'm afraid it's a largely a tight lipped matter why the sets are not being reliable, so it's hard to say how the politics of the situation have developed.
 

John Bishop

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can I ask a few questions for the knowledgeable logical thinkers....

I haven’t heard of a classic set in service for a while. Are they perhaps not out because of the waste tank directive? Maybe union pressure?

wabtec must have stopped work on new sets, if they had continued their yard would be full of refurbs waiting to go north. I know it’s been said about snagging stuff that’s already been done but this is a long long time since anything new came north.

Anyone able to shed light on the reason so few refurbs are in service? We’ve all heard about snagging but there has been plenty time for that. Is it the power cars and/or the carriages that are proving unreliable?

thanks in advance

Latest refurb set came north last week.
 

Journeyman

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The GWR HSTGTI thread suggests they are quite close to releasing a Great Western HST so they presumably are still doing something.
I'm afraid it's a largely a tight lipped matter why the sets are not being reliable, so it's hard to say how the politics of the situation have developed.

The ScotRail sets are former GWR, and GWR's HST reliability has long been drastically worse than the rest. Reasons for this that have been suggested as follows:

  • The GWR sets are more intensively hammered than other fleets, with much more stop/start running and less cruising at steady speeds.
  • ATP kit still fitted, making them more complex (although I think this is being removed).
  • All ScotRail sets have the less reliable type of traction motor fitted.
  • The sets haven't had the electronics upgrades that have been fitted to other fleets.
  • FirstGroup penny-pinching has probably resulted in a do-minimum maintenance regime for some time.
  • Running along the Dawlish sea wall has made corrosion much worse than other fleets.
  • The trains are 40 years old, and if you look at a typical bathtub curve of reliability for all train types, it starts dropping sharply at this time. Even a lot of TLC is going to struggle to halt the decline.
 

Speed43125

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The ScotRail sets are former GWR, and GWR's HST reliability has long been drastically worse than the rest. Reasons for this that have been suggested as follows:

  • The GWR sets are more intensively hammered than other fleets, with much more stop/start running and less cruising at steady speeds.
  • ATP kit still fitted, making them more complex (although I think this is being removed).
  • All ScotRail sets have the less reliable type of traction motor fitted.
  • The sets haven't had the electronics upgrades that have been fitted to other fleets.
  • FirstGroup penny-pinching has probably resulted in a do-minimum maintenance regime for some time.
  • Running along the Dawlish sea wall has made corrosion much worse than other fleets.
  • The trains are 40 years old, and if you look at a typical bathtub curve of reliability for all train types, it starts dropping sharply at this time. Even a lot of TLC is going to struggle to halt the decline.
Indeed. GWR sets area also the older of the original two groups.
I meant to say the particularly bad issues ScotRail has had compared to XC and GWR is all rather hushed up. Your points all stand though. Shame LNER stuff is now being scrapped while we struggle on with GW stock. I mean Mallard stuff is definitely one of the better travelling environments.
 

CJSwan

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Did it? Number eight or nine?
Number eight. There’s been no hint (to my knowledge anyway) of when number nine might come up.

The whole situation is becoming rather tedious now and after the December timetable changes there will be no seat reservations on the Inter7City routes until at least May 2020. Which is just going to be great, said nobody.
 

43096

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Number eight. There’s been no hint (to my knowledge anyway) of when number nine might come up.

The whole situation is becoming rather tedious now and after the December timetable changes there will be no seat reservations on the Inter7City routes until at least May 2020. Which is just going to be great, said nobody.
Actually, I would be all for abandoning seat reservations, particularly for cheap booked-train only tickets and replacing it with a guaranteed seat scheme that cost £10 or so (which would get reserved seats).
 

Journeyman

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Actually, I would be all for abandoning seat reservations, particularly for cheap booked-train only tickets and replacing it with a guaranteed seat scheme that cost £10 or so (which would get reserved seats).

Oh, come on. Citylink must be jumping up and down with glee over this. There's no way you can put a positive spin on it.
 

47271

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Number eight. There’s been no hint (to my knowledge anyway) of when number nine might come up.

The whole situation is becoming rather tedious now and after the December timetable changes there will be no seat reservations on the Inter7City routes until at least May 2020. Which is just going to be great, said nobody.
I agree that the situation is ridiculous, but what's worse, passengers turning up thinking they've got a reservation and finding they don't, or passengers knowing they don't right from the start? Probably the first of those two, and that's what we've had for the past year. That it's taken them this long even to acknowledge the problem speaks volumes for management competence and attitudes towards the passenger.
 

Carntyne

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You raise a valid question - where are all these Mk3 coaches located at the moment?

Either refurbished or not they must be somewhere - what capacity is the Wabtec facility at Doncaster, could it hold 5+ refurbished sets?

I'm away to throw the proverbial spanner in the works with this:
The HSTs are leased to Scotrail by Angel who in turn presumably pay Wabtec to undertake the refurbishment.

Since we know that Scotrail are unhappy with the condition of the refurbished sets, have Angel withheld payment for sets that are supposedly complete such that Wabtec won't release them for delivery?!!
This is turning into a fantasy thread now I'm afraid.
 

Carntyne

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The project as a whole is looking like it was all a fantasy!

What I posted might be fantasy but equally it could have a ring of truth to it, we just don't know.
It doesn't have any ring of truth to it though does it? Mark 3 coaches are still out in service, in Haymarket or Inverness depots being maintained or over at Wabtec being rebuilt. I thiiiink Doncaster might be able to squeeze in more than 5 rakes (20 coaches).
 

Highland37

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OK. You think that.

Can anyone verify if wabtec have the sets to work on?

The reality of this is that every promise is just that, something in the future which remains so.

Muddle on for a few years but order new stock ASAP.
 

mikey9

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They shouldn't be saying things like 'Getting a seat during the transition won’t be a problem.' Getting a seat on a Scotrail intercity service is very often a problem and removing reservations certainly won't make make it any easier for those who would've had booked seats in the past.

If Scotrail was honest with their passengers, and themselves, then they would've done this a year ago. But a large part of the problem with these trains I think is that the operator is kidding themselves most of the time.
This really is weird - I have NEVER had a problem getting a seat on the Inverness to Perth, Stirling, Edinburgh and Glasgow and return runs I do probably 20 times a year - most recently a couple of weeks ago in a group of 6 of us - easy to find two bays of 4 on the 170 in unreserved coach Edin to Inv.
I know this is my experience and yours is yours - but they couldn't really be more different.....
 

Bassman

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I was pleasantly surprised to see a HST turn up on an Inverness to Aberdeen service yesterday. Nice as it was it felt a little overkill for this route. Surely a modern DMU would offer cheaper running costs (although doubtless for a greater purchase or leasing price).
I don't think this is overkill. Inverness and Aberdeen , the two main northern Scottish cities need to be linked by public transport through fast comfortable links. There is no express coach service, or direct links between the North East, Fraserburgh and Peterhead and Inverness. Regional trains have clattered over this route for many year. Only now we are beginning to realise the potential, with the improvement of infrastructure, reopening of stations and consideration of other rail and possibly tram links.
Having proper HST trains belatedly gives this route proper prestige it deserves. Why not be more ambitious about travel links as they promote green economic development?
 

47271

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This really is weird - I have NEVER had a problem getting a seat on the Inverness to Perth, Stirling, Edinburgh and Glasgow and return runs I do probably 20 times a year - most recently a couple of weeks ago in a group of 6 of us - easy to find two bays of 4 on the 170 in unreserved coach Edin to Inv.
I know this is my experience and yours is yours - but they couldn't really be more different.....
Are you travelling out in the morning and back in the evening? If you are then you'll be fine.

It's the mid afternoon, especially in the summer, that's the killer on the Highland Main Line.
 

BRX

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I don't think this is overkill. Inverness and Aberdeen , the two main northern Scottish cities need to be linked by public transport through fast comfortable links. There is no express coach service, or direct links between the North East, Fraserburgh and Peterhead and Inverness. Regional trains have clattered over this route for many year. Only now we are beginning to realise the potential, with the improvement of infrastructure, reopening of stations and consideration of other rail and possibly tram links.
Having proper HST trains belatedly gives this route proper prestige it deserves. Why not be more ambitious about travel links as they promote green economic development?
Completely agree with all this.
 

SC318250

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Set 9 shouldnt be far away, as there were a few coaches sitting in Wabtec beside the demic mark 3 coach earlier this week. I think also there is a pair of Scotrail power cars present also
 

weatherman222

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1642 Glasgow to Aberdeen was a 2 car 158 tonight. The 3 car 170 on the Anniesland service on the adjacent platform just rubbed even more salt into the wound
That's probably because the 170 was commandeered to replace the Edinburgh bound HST, and the 158 to Montrose was cancelled so it could replace the 170 to Glasgow, and therefore your return journey. I got off the 170 to Edinburgh at Dundee as it was going to miss my connection to Carstairs, thinking I could get the next Glasgow train. I took one look at the 158 that turned up, already rammed, with a very busy platform waiting to get on, so didn't even bother, just got the next HST to Edinburgh and got home 2 hours late.
 

Highland37

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That's probably because the 170 was commandeered to replace the Edinburgh bound HST, and the 158 to Montrose was cancelled so it could replace the 170 to Glasgow, and therefore your return journey. I got off the 170 to Edinburgh at Dundee as it was going to miss my connection to Carstairs, thinking I could get the next Glasgow train. I took one look at the 158 that turned up, already rammed, with a very busy platform waiting to get on, so didn't even bother, just got the next HST to Edinburgh and got home 2 hours late.
Why did the HST not do the service?
 
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