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What are Northern's plans for their 10 Class 153s?

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superkev

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Anyone got and update as to what's happening to Northerns 10 horrid but usefull class 153s, post Pacer, and after they eventually get all the new units going.
Thanks
K
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Anyone got and update as to what's happening to Northerns 10 horrid but usefull class 153s, post Pacer, and after they eventually get all the new units going.
Thanks
K
Northern will be applying (or has already applied) for a derogation to continue using solo, non-PRM 153s on at least two routes, those being Huddersfield to Castleford and Huddersfield to Bradford Interchange. This is required due to a lack of free platforms at Huddersfield requiring use of the short P5 which can only just take a 2-car 150- and using a 150 there is discouraged as it's such a tight squeeze.
 
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anamyd

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Anyone got and update as to what's happening to Northerns 10 horrid but usefull class 153s, post Pacer, and after they eventually get all the new units going.
Thanks
K
Northern have 20 153s, not 10.
 

superkev

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This is the nearest thread re Northern 153 withdrawals I could find. Perhaps just needs a re-title
Wasn't it part of the original franchise agreement to withdraw them.
K
 

Llama

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Northern will be applying (or has already applied) for a derogation to continue using solo, non-PRM 153s on at least two routes, those being Huddersfield to Castleford and Huddersfield to Bradford Interchange. This is required due to a lack of free platforms at Huddersfield requiring use of the short P5 which can only just take a 2-car 150- and using a 150 there is discouraged as it's such a tight squeeze.
There was a memo posted about six weeks ago reminding drivers that 150s are prohibited from Huddersfield P5 and if offered the route into platform 5 from HU770 signal or HU1412 signal they are not to take that route.
 

61653 HTAFC

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There was a memo posted about six weeks ago reminding drivers that 150s are prohibited from Huddersfield P5 and if offered the route into platform 5 from HU770 signal or HU1412 signal they are not to take that route.
The last time I saw one in there would've been in around July of this year. Understandable that it is now forbidden, as it is a very tight squeeze.
 

AMD

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They might be staying for a while, the current rumour is that my depot will be signing them next year......
 

Neptune

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Yes single 153’s will work the 2 x Huddersfield- Castleford and 2 x Huddersfield - Bradford I diagrams. Some will be coupled to units on the non 195 Calder Valley services. There is one booked to couple to a 158 on the SX 0517 Leeds - Carlisle and return.

Platform 5 at Huddersfield has been lengthened by adding a flat section onto the ramp. However it is too narrow for passenger use!
 

LMS 4F

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I have used the Castleford to Huddersfield service twice now and think that a 153 was ideal traction for the level of use. I understand the problems with them but would rather have one than a 150, the seats are better configured and there is no contest when comparing them with a Pacer. For a journey of about 30 minutes with a light load they are ideal.
 

tbtc

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Yes single 153’s will work the 2 x Huddersfield- Castleford and 2 x Huddersfield - Bradford I diagrams

Huddersfield to Bradford Interchange is eighteen miles and sixty chains.

Given Northern's lack of staff/ lack of trains/ high levels of subsidy (etc), it's frustrating (and predictable!) that they are unable to run the new hourly Huddersfield - Bradford shuttle with just one diagram/unit - given that the round trip is under thirty eight miles, that's more cost (and staff/ units) tied up on this short service than there ought to be.

But, this is the railway, so presumably there aren't suitable paths in each direction meaning some long layovers at Huddersfield/Bradford, or a ten minute dwell (with twenty minute journey time to cover under nineteen miles) wouldn't be sufficient to maintain reliability or whatever... it just seems a waste (when it's not as if we have lots of spare staff/stock).

I agree with @Kite159 's point about sticking the 153s on the end of a 150/2 though.
 

Andyh82

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Huddersfield to Bradford Interchange is eighteen miles and sixty chains.

Given Northern's lack of staff/ lack of trains/ high levels of subsidy (etc), it's frustrating (and predictable!) that they are unable to run the new hourly Huddersfield - Bradford shuttle with just one diagram/unit - given that the round trip is under thirty eight miles, that's more cost (and staff/ units) tied up on this short service than there ought to be.

But, this is the railway, so presumably there aren't suitable paths in each direction meaning some long layovers at Huddersfield/Bradford, or a ten minute dwell (with twenty minute journey time to cover under nineteen miles) wouldn't be sufficient to maintain reliability or whatever... it just seems a waste (when it's not as if we have lots of spare staff/stock).

I agree with @Kite159 's point about sticking the 153s on the end of a 150/2 though.
The Castleford service also has lots of layover time so it’s a shame they couldnt run both services interworked with 3 diagrams rather than 4 fairly light diagrams
 

Whisky Papa

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Huddersfield to Bradford Interchange is eighteen miles and sixty chains.

Given Northern's lack of staff/ lack of trains/ high levels of subsidy (etc), it's frustrating (and predictable!) that they are unable to run the new hourly Huddersfield - Bradford shuttle with just one diagram/unit - given that the round trip is under thirty eight miles, that's more cost (and staff/ units) tied up on this short service than there ought to be.

But, this is the railway, so presumably there aren't suitable paths in each direction meaning some long layovers at Huddersfield/Bradford, or a ten minute dwell (with twenty minute journey time to cover under nineteen miles) wouldn't be sufficient to maintain reliability or whatever... it just seems a waste (when it's not as if we have lots of spare staff/stock).

I agree with @Kite159 's point about sticking the 153s on the end of a 150/2 though.

I am at a loss to understand how you think an average speed of neary 60mph would be possible in this area? Given that the Sectional Running Times (without any pathing allowances or indeed station dwell) add up to over 30 minutes in each direction, this was never going to be a single train operation, although andyh82's suggestion of interworking with the Castleford service might be worthy of further investigation - but this IS the railway...
 

mic505

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2 153's will transfer to Scotrail mid-2020 for bike and cycle conversion into the Class 156 vechicles.
 

tbtc

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I am at a loss to understand how you think an average speed of neary 60mph would be possible in this area? Given that the Sectional Running Times (without any pathing allowances or indeed station dwell) add up to over 30 minutes in each direction, this was never going to be a single train operation, although andyh82's suggestion of interworking with the Castleford service might be worthy of further investigation - but this IS the railway...

Just making the point that the railway is a lot more expensive/complicated than it needs to be - at a time when we have insufficient staff/ trains, we are taking up two DMUs and two sets of staff to run an hourly service to link two places less than nineteen miles apart (by rail - obviously closer as the crow flies).

If the line speeds are so slow that it's impossible to cover nineteen miles in under half an hour then it's tempting to give up and spend the subsidy on minibuses instead.

(I agree with @Andyh82, mind)
 

noddingdonkey

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It's a shame TPE can't join the Leeds and Manchester stoppers so they just call on P1/8 rather than trying up platforms at Huddersfield, as the old Manchester-Wakefield service did many years ago in the days when p4 was almost never used.
 

superkev

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Just making the point that the railway is a lot more expensive/complicated than it needs to be - at a time when we have insufficient staff/ trains, we are taking up two DMUs and two sets of staff to run an hourly service to link two places less than nineteen miles apart (by rail - obviously closer as the crow flies).

If the line speeds are so slow that it's impossible to cover nineteen miles in under half an hour then it's tempting to give up and spend the subsidy on minibuses instead.

(I agree with @Andyh82, mind)
Last time I used the Bradford Huddersfield service it spent most of it's time stood still at Halifax, Brighouse and longest of all Bradley junction where I could watch my Manchester trans pennine go past. I believe it still has time allowed for the never built Elland Station. Far quicker by bus so a complete waste of time and resource.
May doo better if they could speed it up a bit and link it to the Sheffield service.
K
 

61653 HTAFC

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It's a shame TPE can't join the Leeds and Manchester stoppers so they just call on P1/8 rather than trying up platforms at Huddersfield, as the old Manchester-Wakefield service did many years ago in the days when p4 was almost never used.
They tried that in May 2018 and it was an unmitigated disaster, which is why the "6th path" was split a year ago. Presumably TPE will want to rejoin the stoppers as soon as they can make it work. However I'm not sure it can work until the infrastructure is upgraded.

The old FNW Manchester to Wakefield service was a peculiar oddity: it was the only route FNW ran into West Yorkshire, and didn't have many passengers travelling across Huddersfield other than a few folk from Slaithwaite and Marsden connecting to London services at Wakefield Westgate. Now that the service runs to Castleford that purpose would no longer apply.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Last time I used the Bradford Huddersfield service it spent most of it's time stood still at Halifax, Brighouse and longest of all Bradley junction where I could watch my Manchester trans pennine go past. I believe it still has time allowed for the never built Elland Station. Far quicker by bus so a complete waste of time and resource.
May doo better if they could speed it up a bit and link it to the Sheffield service.
K
The service used to dwell longer at Halifax, but some of that time was used to add the Low Moor stop. In the rush hour the train beats the X63 but at all other times the bus is generally a few minutes quicker towards Bradford, and much quicker towards Huddersfield.

Joining to the Penistone line service is a non-starter I'm afraid. Even if platform 4 was freed up by merging the mainline stoppers, having to cross the up main line at Springwood junction twice each hour would be quite a performance risk. There's also various single sections and busy flat crossings on either half of the route which would be a timetabler's nightmare.

I'm also not sure what purpose it would serve other than looking neat on a route map. If people from Bradford and Halifax want to get to Meadowhall or Sheffield, they'll go via Leeds- and soon they'll have a direct service via that route. If there's any demand for a more direct service it would need Horbury curve to be reinstated- in which case you probably wouldn't serve Huddersfield at all.
 

Whisky Papa

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Just making the point that the railway is a lot more expensive/complicated than it needs to be - at a time when we have insufficient staff/ trains, we are taking up two DMUs and two sets of staff to run an hourly service to link two places less than nineteen miles apart (by rail - obviously closer as the crow flies).

If the line speeds are so slow that it's impossible to cover nineteen miles in under half an hour then it's tempting to give up and spend the subsidy on minibuses instead.

(I agree with @Andyh82, mind)

It is of course a franchise requirement to run these trains, and despite the slow journey time they do have their uses for coneectional purposes: the bus may be faster but that then leaves a walk to the railway station at Huddersfield. They were often used by passengers from Bradford connecting onto westbound TPE services as they qualified for a cheaper "via Halifax" fare, although perhaps that should not be a justification. Of course, it may now also be possible to make those connections at Manchester Victoria.

I do agree in essence that it seems wasteful. I remember having similar strictures about the old Stockport-Stalybridge shuttles that required two units for an even shorter journey, but the times of those were constrained by connections with the hourly Manchester-Euston trains. More recently, I seem to recall a Macclesfield-Deansgate service that used three units and had a massive layover at one end - Trafford Park siding I think?

Certainly, no bus operator would willingly run an hourly service that took just over an hour for a round trip. It would either be interworked along the lines suggested by andyh82, extended to some further point or perhaps rerouted/retimed to get the time under an hour (far from ideal).

Returning to topic, one current use of the 153 fleet is to make 3-car trains on the Rochdale-Victoria-Blackburn/Clitheroe services, where I believe longer formations are not used due to platform lengths. Is this to continue, does anyone know?
 

py_megapixel

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Northern will be applying (or has already applied) for a derogation to continue using solo, non-PRM 153s on at least two routes
Presumably if they're staying any length of time they'll eventually get the PRM mods though? If I recall, it was a franchise commitment for all retained stock to have an interior refit anyway, which would satisfy many of the requirements, although I know some TOCs had concerns about the amount of space that an accessible toilet would take up in a 1-car unit.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Presumably if they're staying any length of time they'll eventually get the PRM mods though? If I recall, it was a franchise commitment for all retained stock to have an interior refit anyway, which would satisfy many of the requirements, although I know some TOCs had concerns about the amount of space that an accessible toilet would take up in a 1-car unit.
That depends on how long that mode of operation is required. Platform availability at Huddersfield won't improve until the mainline stoppers are rejoined, which now might not happen until after the route upgrade and rebuild. Transport for Wales (the TOC) recently unveiled their PRM-ed 153, so it can be done... but at peak times they might be a bit too small even on those two Northern routes. Particularly if the TPE stopper is cancelled that hour!

Either that or put another few 144s through the "evolution" process!
 

td97

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Returning to topic, one current use of the 153 fleet is to make 3-car trains on the Rochdale-Victoria-Blackburn/Clitheroe services, where I believe longer formations are not used due to platform lengths.
Double 150s fit, but not doubles of 23m stock. Platform extensions will enable that next year.
There's also the formation with 150209 + 153 which only has a toilet in the 153.
Man Vic-Stalybridge shuttles booked a 153+158 from the TT change too!
What a waste of a 158!
 
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