Does anyone know the rate at which drivers are leaving Northern, and how it compares to other TOCs? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that they leave for better paid jobs elsewhere almost as fast as Northern can recruit them and train them. If that is the case, then recruitment is only half of the solution
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Northern - is the bad PR unfair?
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The problem is no one trusts Northern for such measures to be for, say, six months. They would be much more likely drift on for 18 months or more. It is also difficult to see why Northern should be paid subsidy for services they were not operating, and so their income would rightly be reduced.
Northern's biggest problem in terms of reputation is not its staffing challenges. It is that it is not perceived as being competent and having a grip on its problems. That is reinforced by a total lack of understanding of how to positively reinforce their image to the public.
Northern's biggest problem in terms of reputation is not its staffing challenges. It is that it is not perceived as being competent and having a grip on its problems. That is reinforced by a total lack of understanding of how to positively reinforce their image to the public.
Spot on. Completely agree. A bit of humility would be a good start.
Spot on. Completely agree. A bit of humility would be a good start.
Agreed. This was so evident when David Brown (eventually) spoke to the media after last May’s meltdown - an exercise in “sorry but nearly all of it wasn’t our fault”
They’re also masters of the passive aggressive apology “I’m sorry you feel like that”
Until very recently I used to commute nearly every day into Middlesbrough and whilst I'm obviously not going to be looking in detail at every service in the North East when I'm only really interested in two (the one that forms my train and my train itself!) I can't say that I've noticed "late from depot" as being anything approaching a systemic fault.
Obviously I can't speak for the rest of the Northern operation but seeing as I was replying to someone who also, presumably, uses the same line as myself it seemed relevant to add my two pence!
About 5-7% of the drivers at my depot are in the process of leaving right now. For anyone who started after 2003 the notice period is six months, so we can assume turnover is say 10-15% per year. That is approximately the same rate as recruitment, but trainee drivers are only partially productive when they've been trained (initial driver training takes say 12 months, but that's very optimistic at the moment with all the other training that is taking priority). From trainee driver walking in the door on their first day to fully productive driver competent in all routes and traction is taking about five years at the moment.
What does also affect the issue of recruitment balance is the turnover of driver instructors and driver managers. Trainee drivers won't get very far without enough of them. Recruiting and training a driver instructor from a driver shouldn't take long (but somehow manages to); training a driver manager from a driver or driver instructor takes s lot longer before they're fully productive, probably well over a year.
Grumpy Git
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Good news for experienced drivers being able to get better wages/conditions by moving, but again this is one of the drawbacks of privatisation for the general public. Badly run TOC's will mean a rubbish service for passengers in that area as the drivers leave in droves.
Northern management is a shambles as far as I can see?
They can only leave if there are vacancies - are there that many vacancies at other TOCs right now?
The issues earlier in the week when a tamper damaged point and so blocked Sowerby Bridge-Brighouse is an example of how Northern does itself no favours in terms of public image.
The station information screens and Northern's Twitter feed both referred to the delays and cancellations being due to engineering works overrunning. Now I know that engineering works are not Northern's responsibility, but many of the public don't know that, so it looks to them that Northern aren't capable of finishing engineering works on time.
If Northern had said it was due to damage to points it would have given a very different impression.
The station information screens and Northern's Twitter feed both referred to the delays and cancellations being due to engineering works overrunning. Now I know that engineering works are not Northern's responsibility, but many of the public don't know that, so it looks to them that Northern aren't capable of finishing engineering works on time.
If Northern had said it was due to damage to points it would have given a very different impression.
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Grumpy Git
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Do the people managing (i.e. in charge) of public announcements have ANY knowledge of how the railway works on a day to day basis?
I suspect not. They probably think track tamper damage is when somebody has tried to break into their office?
Never seen drivers leave in droves. When you are paid £20,000 more than the job is worth you don't leave. Far too many BMW's and Audi's to support, and you can't support those stacking shelves at Morrisions.
Certainly those that update information screens at stations and journeycheck online will do as they are a grade of people who work within Northern control. As do the Twitter desk people for that matter.
scotrail158713
Established Member
Have you thrown away the can opener?
The days of using the long line PA for disruption information at stations is long gone. Why they don’t use it I don’t know but they need to realise that not everyone is on twitter and people want real time information, not a 5 word excuse on a destination screen.
During any delay and disruption I always tell my passengers the honest reason for it even if management don’t always approve. I’d rather have people on my side.
During any delay and disruption I always tell my passengers the honest reason for it even if management don’t always approve. I’d rather have people on my side.
Not sure if you have seen this but there was a mass passenger demonstration against Northern today, as anger with this continuing farce boils over
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...otest-demand-northern-rail-stripped-franchise
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...otest-demand-northern-rail-stripped-franchise
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Why is the job paid £20,000 more than "its worth"? I would suggest all "fund managers" and "venture capitalists" are paid at least 100% more than they are worth? At least a train driver actually does something for his/her living.
Good for you.
thejuggler
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Another day, another failed unit, another long list of delays and cancellations on Calder Valley line.
td97
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Don't forget state-run trains won't ever break down if OLR takes over. Take a look over at LNER...
Thing is, even if the franchise changes management, does anything actually change? I remember ten years ago being stranded in Manchester on multiple occasions due to staff shortages, and that was under the old serco/abellio contract. I see that the same cancellations are happening now due to staff shortages. So much for progress. Something about the setup is rotten.
CaptainHaddock
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From the link;
"A spokesman for Northern said: “It’s on record that the Northern franchise has faced several material and unprecedented challenges in the past couple of years, outside the direct control of Northern. The most significant of these is the ongoing, late delivery of major infrastructure upgrades. The North West electrification was more than two years late.
“We are delivering the biggest transformation of local rail for a generation, with 33 of our 101 new trains now in service and driver training taking place on dozens more trains right now.”
Translation; Northern continue to pass the buck and blame everyone but themselves for their appalling service. But cheer up, they're bringing in new trains which are just as unreliable as the ones they're replacing and have hardly any extra capacity.
Bantamzen
Established Member
You so very nearly had the right answer as to what the real problem is. And to help you I will give you a hint....
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-transport
That looked like a massive protest. I'm sure all protagonists are quaking in their boots....
Seriously though, who do they propose take over? Answers on a postcard to DfT, Whitehall, London.....
No. And this is because no matter who runs a TOC, they have to deal with the broken franchise system, and successive governments that refuse to see the railway as a public asset instead of a cash cow. That's not to say that there are not bad decisions made by TOCs, but even just a glance at these forums reveals that there are problems right across the network.
Things will only ever change for the better when the railways are run as a public service, for the public & with the necessary public funding. That doesn't necessarily mean nationalisation, but at the very least the system needs to be changed so that services & revenues are owned by the government & contracted out to the operators.
Arriva knowingly engaged in a fundamentally flawed system, made a series of over ambitious promises that they couldn’t deliver on due to their and others’ failings, made decisions which further eroded already limited staff goodwill, managed the PR poorly by painting themselves as being victims, and continue to offer poor customer service.
Sums it up for me
Sums it up for me
CaptainHaddock
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Surely, given the costs and time involved in training up drivers, Northern would have the common sense to insert a "golden handcuffs" clause into their new drivers' contracts?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/golden-handcuffs-contracts.110261/
can you see what you’ve done there?
5 years! What on earth is going on? The average at my depot (East) is around 18 months. How can it take another 3 1/2 years?
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