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Weymouth Line Questions

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Doomotron

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Am I right in saying that because of insufficient power supply, only a single Class 444 can run on the line, meaning that there isn't enough capacity? If so, how would it deal with Class 73 or 92 in comparison? Could SWR theoretically run longer trains by using LHCS stock?
 
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swt_passenger

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Am I right in saying that because of insufficient power supply, only a single Class 444 can run on the line, meaning that there isn't enough capacity? If so, how would it deal with Class 73 or 92 in comparison? Could SWR theoretically run longer trains by using LHCS stock?
Yes you are right, that’s the normal rule (beyond Poole) only single 444s, single 450s and one Class 73 at a time are normally allowed; but exceptions can be applied for on an individual basis.

From the Sectional Appendix, Class 92s are not route cleared anywhere in Wessex route, (apart from some minor interfaces in the Clapham Jn area), so I expect power limits for them won’t have been published so far “off piste”.

I suspect there’s little or no need for longer trains, despite it regularly being suggested in these forums. LHCS would be a solution without a problem.
 
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Wychwood93

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Back in the late 80's, when electric stuff actually managed to reach Weymouth, I timed assorted instances of double CIGs and CIG/VEP combinations - a max draw of around 1500kw - a double 444/450 would, notionally, pull around 2400kw. The latter a no-no.
 

Journeyman

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Am I right in saying that because of insufficient power supply, only a single Class 444 can run on the line, meaning that there isn't enough capacity? If so, how would it deal with Class 73 or 92 in comparison? Could SWR theoretically run longer trains by using LHCS stock?

LHCS would be a solution without a problem.

Lame attempt to find use for surplus rolling stock alert.
 

Wychwood93

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Lame attempt to find use for surplus rolling stock alert.
On summer Saturdays some while ago there used to be an XC HST service - a couple of locos with coaches between them! Voyagers at some time as well. Both excellent up to Bincombe Tunnel. Unlikely to get that sort of stuff now.
 

TEW

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A pair of 450s was booked to work one service to Weymouth in the middle of the day a few years ago, lasted one timetable period.
 

Snow1964

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A pair of 450s was booked to work one service to Weymouth in the middle of the day a few years ago, lasted one timetable period.

Weren’t the 450s power limited (by software) in the early days, (was it 1500 Kw ?), think later it became 1800. The 444s also had a restriction for few years, but was higher as wouldn’t operate as 3 coupled sets. Subsequently many substations in London area were upgraded.

I think the Weymouth electrification was done on the cheap in late 1980s, so feeders and substations were skimped.
 

swt_passenger

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Weren’t the 450s power limited (by software) in the early days, (was it 1500 Kw ?), think later it became 1800. The 444s also had a restriction for few years, but was higher as wouldn’t operate as 3 coupled sets. Subsequently many substations in London area were upgraded.

I think the Weymouth electrification was done on the cheap in late 1980s, so feeders and substations were skimped.
“On the cheap” or was it done to match the service patterns intended at the time? The frequency has since been doubled of course. Substations continue to be upgraded on the wider network but probably won’t be at the Weymouth end, because there’s no obvious need to increase the services.
 

Grecian 1998

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Am I right in saying that because of insufficient power supply, only a single Class 444 can run on the line, meaning that there isn't enough capacity? If so, how would it deal with Class 73 or 92 in comparison? Could SWR theoretically run longer trains by using LHCS stock?

If there's any line in the country which generally has over-capacity, it's probably this one. The line west of Poole currently has 2 5-carriage 444s in each direction most hours. I've used it many times over the last 20 years and frankly west of Poole 1 train an hour would normally suffice in my experience, except possibly in high summer. My brother commutes from Wool to Bournemouth during the rush hour and has mentioned it's never a problem getting a double seat to himself in either direction normally.

The line was electrified partly because cheaper techniques of electrification were developed by the 1980s, but also partly because the MkI 4REPs and 4TCs were beginning to look seriously outdated compared to the MkIIIs available on other comparable services, and push-pull operation was out of favour after the Polmont disaster. It was therefore easiest to electrify the whole route and build the 442s (albeit reusing equipment from the 4REPs).

Unfortunately in order to justify electrification BR had to demonstrate economies to obtain government approval, which is why Dorchester South - Moreton was singled in 1985. Despite occasional protests it isn't that much of a capacity constraint, but Michael Baker's 1988 book The Waterloo to Weymouth Line suggests the original plan was to single the line from Dorchester to Wareham, which would have been much more problematic. Fortunately that never happened.
 

LMS 4F

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If there's any line in the country which generally has over-capacity, it's probably this one. The line west of Poole currently has 2 5-carriage 444s in each direction most hours. I've used it many times over the last 20 years and frankly west of Poole 1 train an hour would normally suffice in my experience, except possibly in high summer. My brother commutes from Wool to Bournemouth during the rush hour and has mentioned it's never a problem getting a double seat to himself in either direction normally.

The line was electrified partly because cheaper techniques of electrification were developed by the 1980s, but also partly because the MkI 4REPs and 4TCs were beginning to look seriously outdated compared to the MkIIIs available on other comparable services, and push-pull operation was out of favour after the Polmont disaster. It was therefore easiest to electrify the whole route and build the 442s (albeit reusing equipment from the 4REPs).

Unfortunately in order to justify electrification BR had to demonstrate economies to obtain government approval, which is why Dorchester South - Moreton was singled in 1985. Despite occasional protests it isn't that much of a capacity constraint, but Michael Baker's 1988 book The Waterloo to Weymouth Line suggests the original plan was to single the line from Dorchester to Wareham, which would have been much more problematic. Fortunately that never happened.
I first used this line in 1963 when it was steam hauled, a BR standard as I recall, and have used it many times since the last being about three weeks ago. I can never recall a service being anywhere near full. Compared with trains I have been on in many other places this has always seemed as a pleasant rural journey more than adequately provided with capacity of the stock, whatever the date and the actual unit/coaches provided.
 
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Which has tended to be the case in much of the south-east for a long time as long trains are needed for the London bit but not the country bit.
 

Doomotron

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Lame attempt to find use for surplus rolling stock alert.
Thanks mate

I thought the line was overcrowded (I was wrong) and thought that LHCS could be an alternative. As only 73s and 92s have third rail shoes, they're the only types of trains that could run the service.
 

theironroad

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If there's any line in the country which generally has over-capacity, it's probably this one. The line west of Poole currently has 2 5-carriage 444s in each direction most hours. I've used it many times over the last 20 years and frankly west of Poole 1 train an hour would normally suffice in my experience, except possibly in high summer. My brother commutes from Wool to Bournemouth during the rush hour and has mentioned it's never a problem getting a double seat to himself in either direction normally.

The line was electrified partly because cheaper techniques of electrification were developed by the 1980s, but also partly because the MkI 4REPs and 4TCs were beginning to look seriously outdated compared to the MkIIIs available on other comparable services, and push-pull operation was out of favour after the Polmont disaster. It was therefore easiest to electrify the whole route and build the 442s (albeit reusing equipment from the 4REPs).

Unfortunately in order to justify electrification BR had to demonstrate economies to obtain government approval, which is why Dorchester South - Moreton was singled in 1985. Despite occasional protests it isn't that much of a capacity constraint, but Michael Baker's 1988 book The Waterloo to Weymouth Line suggests the original plan was to single the line from Dorchester to Wareham, which would have been much more problematic. Fortunately that never happened.

Haha, until around the 2004? Timetable recast, it was only 1 tph. If First had their way , it would also have been 1 tph: since December 2018 but that was put on hold.

99/100 times, a 5 car is more than enough between Weymouth and at least Poole if not Bournemouth.
 

Journeyman

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I thought the line was overcrowded (I was wrong) and thought that LHCS could be an alternative. As only 73s and 92s have third rail shoes, they're the only types of trains that could run the service.

Apart from the Mark 4s, which I very much doubt are suitable, no loco-hauled coaches meet PRM compliance without hugely expensive modifications.

Complete nonstarter.
 

Grecian 1998

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Haha, until around the 2004? Timetable recast, it was only 1 tph. If First had their way , it would also have been 1 tph: since December 2018 but that was put on hold.

99/100 times, a 5 car is more than enough between Weymouth and at least Poole if not Bournemouth.

True - and when I used it before then the 1tph was sufficient. I recall being on one service heading west from Southampton Central on a Friday in half-term in 2001 which was crush loaded, but 3 stops later at Poole no-one was standing.

Which has tended to be the case in much of the south-east for a long time as long trains are needed for the London bit but not the country bit.

Which is why splitting MUs has long been the done thing at Bournemouth and Salisbury amongst other locations. It's a question of balance though: 10 carriages per hour beween Bournemouth and Weymouth is slight overkill, 3 carriages per hour (on many services) between Salisbury and Exeter frequently isn't enough other than between Yeovil Jct and Axminster (most London passengers have left by Yeovil Jct. but the trains start filling up with Exeter bound passengers from Axminster, and vice versa). But then longer trains are one of the many advantages of electrification.
 

swt_passenger

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Haha, until around the 2004? Timetable recast, it was only 1 tph. If First had their way , it would also have been 1 tph: since December 2018 but that was put on hold.

99/100 times, a 5 car is more than enough between Weymouth and at least Poole if not Bournemouth.
I thought 2 tph was only started some time into the 2007 franchise, about 2010 maybe? But in advance of the Olympics anyway. The proposed 2018 changes, if they’d happened, were a requirement of the DfT franchise spec and were known about well before First MTR were awarded the franchise, so cannot really be blamed on them...
 

Alfonso

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While as many have mentioned there was/is no need for more power, another reason for not supplying more to the railway is that electricity supply all over West Dorset is severely constrained and would require lots of money to upgrade.
On another note, First's proposal still had 2tph, one going to London, one to Portsmouth.
Dorset's residents asked for faster trains, and were offered them. Dorset's residents asked for the extra stops at Moreton, Wool, the sheep field by the humpback bridge and the Greenwood Tree to be put back in again, and we were back to square one.
 

theironroad

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I thought 2 tph was only started some time into the 2007 franchise, about 2010 maybe? But in advance of the Olympics anyway. The proposed 2018 changes, if they’d happened, were a requirement of the DfT franchise spec and were known about well before First MTR were awarded the franchise, so cannot really be blamed on them...

Didn't realise I was that far out with the date , but I wasn't sure (hence ?) and you may well be right. Also accept that franchise spec, wouldn't want to heap more woes onto first. No doubt if the Weymouth's are recast (retaining 2 wey to wat) first will take the credit.
 

swt_passenger

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Didn't realise I was that far out with the date , but I wasn't sure (hence ?) and you may well be right. Also accept that franchise spec, wouldn't want to heap more woes onto first. No doubt if the Weymouth's are recast (retaining 2 wey to wat) first will take the credit.
I think the decision to retain the through 2tph to Weymouth has already been confirmed. It’s the intended changes to have Poole portions on hourly Weymouth trains (splitting and joining at Southampton) that will be the next possible change.
 

theironroad

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I think the decision to retain the through 2tph to Weymouth has already been confirmed. It’s the intended changes to have Poole portions on hourly Weymouth trains (splitting and joining at Southampton) that will be the next possible change.

Agree they did confirm it, but as First have supposedly been talking to the dft about aspects of the franchise (mainly financial ii think) and with all the other issues theynhave with SWR I wonder if the changes will ever be fully made including speeding up a fast Weymouth, all of which should have happened this time last year, but would probably be Dec 2020 at earliest now.
 

Djgr

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True - and when I used it before then the 1tph was sufficient. I recall being on one service heading west from Southampton Central on a Friday in half-term in 2001 which was crush loaded, but 3 stops later at Poole no-one was standing.



Which is why splitting MUs has long been the done thing at Bournemouth and Salisbury amongst other locations. It's a question of balance though: 10 carriages per hour beween Bournemouth and Weymouth is slight overkill, 3 carriages per hour (on many services) between Salisbury and Exeter frequently isn't enough other than between Yeovil Jct and Axminster (most London passengers have left by Yeovil Jct. but the trains start filling up with Exeter bound passengers from Axminster, and vice versa). But then longer trains are one of the many advantages of electrification.

That was my experience of the line earlier this year. Huge swathes of empty seats (and don't get me started on Lymington over-provision) All the more galling when people are standing between Manchester and Leeds morning, noon and night.
 
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That was my experience of the line earlier this year. Huge swathes of empty seats (and don't get me started on Lymington over-provision) All the more galling when people are standing between Manchester and Leeds morning, noon and night.

Are you comparing the same thing? The end of a journey which will have been full at the London end and the middle of a journey which may be less full at, say, the Middlesbrough end.
 

LMS 4F

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Are you comparing the same thing? The end of a journey which will have been full at the London end and the middle of a journey which may be less full at, say, the Middlesbrough end.
Most of the Weymouth services will have left Waterloo with 10 coaches to deal with the expected numbers. From Bournemouth they will be down to 5 which we all seem to agree are more than adequate.
The majority of Trans Pennine have been three coaches rammed full for a majority of their trip and many other routes up north have been two ancient coaches often overcrowded as well.
Seen from up here this is a good example of the imbalance between the provision of investment between The south east and elsewhere.
 

theironroad

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That was my experience of the line earlier this year. Huge swathes of empty seats (and don't get me started on Lymington over-provision) All the more galling when people are standing between Manchester and Leeds morning, noon and night.

Even when it was a 2 car DMU, it was done for Lymington, however, it is a branch line (and a community rail partnership) so for SWR it's either a 4-450 or 2-158 and the 158 was needed elsewhere.
 

Djgr

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Are you comparing the same thing? The end of a journey which will have been full at the London end and the middle of a journey which may be less full at, say, the Middlesbrough end.

I think that there is a feeling that if Bournemouth to Weymouth was not located where it was then it would have been handled by a 2 car Pacer!

(Weymouth's passenger numbers are not much greater than Hartlepool, for example)
 

theironroad

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I think that there is a feeling that if Bournemouth to Weymouth was not located where it was then it would have been handled by a 2 car Pacer!

(Weymouth's passenger numbers are not much greater than Hartlepool, for example)

Haha,while a 5 car is over capacity most of the time, a 2 car pacer would be very cosy especially after Wareham/Poole heading east.
 

Meerkat

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I think that there is a feeling that if Bournemouth to Weymouth was not located where it was then it would have been handled by a 2 car Pacer!

(Weymouth's passenger numbers are not much greater than Hartlepool, for example)

How much are passengers paying in Bournemouth compared to Hartlepool? SWR pays whopping great premia remember
 

Djgr

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How much are passengers paying in Bournemouth compared to Hartlepool? SWR pays whopping great premia remember

Pretty certain that any reasonable profit and loss costing of the Bournemouth to Weymouth line in isolation would show that taxpayers are coughing up significant sums for its generous provision.
 

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Pretty certain that any reasonable profit and loss costing of the Bournemouth to Weymouth line in isolation would show that taxpayers are coughing up significant sums for its generous provision.
Not so convinced, but anyway we are talking relatively so how do those significant sums compare to those for Hartlepool, per passenger?
 

Djgr

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Not so convinced, but anyway we are talking relatively so how do those significant sums compare to those for Hartlepool, per passenger?

No idea but I am not going to get into a discussion where there is an underlying premise that "the North" should be grateful they have anything.
 
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