Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

F Great Eastern · 6 Dec 2019

bunnahabhain said:
Internal talk is that Abellio are favouring EMR over GA and the 156s will head to EMR come what may, as the reputation for EMR isn't tarnished unlike that for GA.

Don't worry, EMR have the 180s coming, there'll be plenty of time for that to change! Abellio are probably pretty happy that they no longer have their name on the side of the trains on Greater Anglia now because it wouldn't be a great advert for them at all!

The 360s are going to EMR as well and with the problems with the Aventra production and rollout, it'll be interesting to see what happens there if GA are in a serious bind but I suspect it might be the same as the 156s and they will have to leave bang on time.

If Abellio really do believe that GA is tarnished and they need to protect EMR at all costs no matter what the consequences, then that is disappointing. You would think they could potentially have a compromise where some units stay for a bit longer but some still transfer.

For the 153s and the 170s they've been saying to the media they can't keep them as they are due to other operators so they have no choice effectively. That argument doesn't wash so well when it's a company in their group and people might claim there is a two tier approach to franchises.

Does anyone know what tomorrow is looking like?

RailUK Forums

Adrian1980uk · 6 Dec 2019

No excuses for GA getting it wrong but having been on the receiving end of got it wrong and trying to put it right (GA are now in that situation) I have sympathy for all working there as its no fun. All anyone can do now is work through it as a team Inc management and slowly it gets better and easier

LAX54 · 6 Dec 2019

Hyperthetical question, sort of based on today, IF you decide you have to say, withdraw all the 755's for whatever reason, and you are left with however many 156's there are, and 'the' 170, how would you use the stock available to the best advantage ?

F Great Eastern · 6 Dec 2019

Adrian1980uk said:
No excuses for GA getting it wrong but having been on the receiving end of got it wrong and trying to put it right (GA are now in that situation) I have sympathy for all working there as its no fun. All anyone can do now is work through it as a team Inc management and slowly it gets better and easier

The problem is do Greater Anglia feel they have got it wrong or do they believe they are the victims of bad luck?

They've put out a few hard luck stories and there's been talk about supplier issues from Abellio, mishaps, bad luck, incidents involving trains, animals, poor weather, there's quite a few things. To my knowledge, there is not an admission as of yet that they believe they have got it wrong but I've heard many different excuses and not a peep out of the MD who is still hiding behind Jonathan Denby it seems.

Now I hope that they're simply saying this publicly to save face and protect their brand and company image whilst privately realising that mistakes were made. But if they really think exactly what they are saying publicly and believe they are the victims of bad luck, then that is worrying because we still have the EMU, Stansted Express and Intercity fleet program to start and we could be going through this all again with those fleet as well!

This is probably the worst week I can ever remember for the local lines and the rest of the network has had a bad week as well. The MK3s really are not aging well and are looking very unloved, the press are now starting to turn on them as well and user groups are getting very frustrated and I wouldn't be surprised if the staff are not that happy with the redundancies on the horizon at Crown Point in the engineering department, potential catering jobs going and RMT members talking about not wanting to drive new trains, the new screens are very poor in times of disruption,then there's the level crossing issue with 755 which was a very very very close call.

The list of problems raising their heads recently just keeps growing so I cannot see these things being turned around very quickly.

Tim Regester · 6 Dec 2019

I am sure this discussion has been had on railforums before but when will our railways move to block signalling rather than track circuits. Its a proven technology, its much less susceptible to external issues like leaf fall or circuit failure. In the early 1990's I was involved in discussions on whether to install Westinghouse relay based track circuit systems vs a moving block system on the Central Line, that would enable much higher usage of track sections and even then was proving to be much safer. Then as now, the lack of available investment funds for railway signalling killed any prospect of moving to block signalling. Thankfully the Jubilee line and Victoria line use Block signalling

What I just tried to discover is if the railways that Flirts are in use on in Europe are using Track Circuits or Block Signalling, it seems ERTMS is the most used signalling system in Europe. Consequently Stadler would have likely had to retrofit its trains for track circuit signalling, no easy task, like installing tripcocks on fully computerised tube trains, and they probably don't have the knowhow in house.

Thanks to our pathetic railway industry setup, we cannot even introduce new trains that work nearl flawlessly abroad on our railways because we are still stuck with out of date signalling technology.

On this point you have to feel a bit sorry for Stadler (maybe not for Abellio whose engineering team should have flagged this point issue at the design stage).

eastdyke · 6 Dec 2019

swills said:
Hyperthetical question, sort of based on today, IF you decide you have to say, withdraw all the 755's for whatever reason, and you are left with however many 156's there are, and 'the' 170, how would you use the stock available to the best advantage ?

I'll bite! Assuming 10 units and that I can rely on 9 being available:
Emergency timetable for:
3 Ips-Camb*, 3 E. Suffolk, 2 Norwich-Ely shuttle, 1 Norwich-N Walsham shuttle.
* take 1 mid evening out and run the last Ips-Pbo return.
Everything else bus, ok availability might be an issue for Norwich-Yarmouths and Lowestofts.
Order plentiful supply of 'extra strong' tin hats.

eastdyke · 7 Dec 2019

Still trying to get my head around 'why today'? Not speculation, just questions.

NR seem to have been checking and adjusting LC controls on route Sheringham for the past 10 days and have in place an ESR20 on the AHB's.

Overnight 755s come under spotlight as if someone woke up in a eureka sweat and decided to check the trains. Can't believe that or that the action was related to the timing of the RAIB release, surely safety checks and remediation would have been directed to GA/Stadler earlier than publication?

So, has there now been another wrong side failure implicating the units? Has a routine inspection cast doubt on the TCA's? Not being a Rail Engineer, are the specific TCAs fitted sub-optimal for UK railhead conditions?

Not at all reassured by checking each unit after each trip. If deterioration of some sort can appear in a single trip that would in itself imply extra risk.

No idea where this will go next

gingerheid · 7 Dec 2019

So...

- Sudbury bustituted
- Felixstowe bustituted
- 2/hourly Ipswich Lowestoft
- Bury - Ely bustituted and Ely - Peterborough cancelled. At least some level of bustitution for Ipswich - Bury, and information for Cambridge - Ipswich to follow.
- reduced speed Norwich - Cromer and Cromer - Sheringham bustituted.

The above all weekend.

And this is still supposed to be because of signalling problems? *cough*.

LAX54 · 7 Dec 2019

eastdyke said:
Still trying to get my head around 'why today'? Not speculation, just questions.

NR seem to have been checking and adjusting LC controls on route Sheringham for the past 10 days and have in place an ESR20 on the AHB's.

Overnight 755s come under spotlight as if someone woke up in a eureka sweat and decided to check the trains. Can't believe that or that the action was related to the timing of the RAIB release, surely safety checks and remediation would have been directed to GA/Stadler earlier than publication?

So, has there now been another wrong side failure implicating the units? Has a routine inspection cast doubt on the TCA's? Not being a Rail Engineer, are the specific TCAs fitted sub-optimal for UK railhead conditions?

Not at all reassured by checking each unit after each trip. If deterioration of some sort can appear in a single trip that would in itself imply extra risk.

No idea where this will go next

755s I think over the past week or so, not showing up, shall we say in various places, and as gingerheid says No Felixstowes this weekend, or Sudburys, Sheringham's terminate Cromer, Yarmouth / Lowestoft FULL service planned, Ipswich to Lowestoft 2 hourly from 0807 Low and 0817 Ips ( 2 units crossing at Sax) Wheelsets checked every other trip.
Engineering Possession all weekend Haughley to Bury (HOBC work)

86246 · 7 Dec 2019

gingerheid said:
So...

- Sudbury bustituted
- Felixstowe bustituted
- 2/hourly Ipswich Lowestoft
- Bury - Ely bustituted and Ely - Peterborough cancelled. At least some level of bustitution for Ipswich - Bury, and information for Cambridge - Ipswich to follow.
- reduced speed Norwich - Cromer and Cromer - Sheringham bustituted.

The above all weekend.

And this is still supposed to be because of signalling problems? *cough*.

No Bury St Edmunds - Cambridge services today.

CTS1990 · 7 Dec 2019

86246 said:
No Bury St Edmunds - Cambridge services today.

Very frustrating! Do we know if the cancellations are directly related to the 755s? I’m not entirely clear as to why the Bury-Cambridge section can’t be operated as normal.

F Great Eastern · 7 Dec 2019

Really unfortunate to see that the signalling problems have got worse overnight and now the fault has spread to the Sudbury Line, I mean this really unfortunate isn't it :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, it looks like they have even less units than yesterday available, the wording of the reason on the GA site has slightly changed and is now: "Due to a shortage of trains as a result of the signalling fault."

It's the broken signalling system that is faulty, stopping our working trains from running, the narrative is and it won't be fixed until at least Monday. I wonder what Network Rail think about this?

Incidentally a path from Crown Point to Neville Hill has appeared on RTT for Monday.

Astro_Orbiter · 7 Dec 2019

What difference does it make? The problem is still there and I'm sure all parties are working as hard as possible to sort it all out.

Tug · 7 Dec 2019

I guess that it might be a signalling fault in that the signalling is not working properly possibly because of the trains not communicating with it properly. As was previously posted if this is the case then the blame game will be in full swing.

Monday, with less 156's available will be interesting.

Astr_Orbiter. It matters & it does make a difference.

F Great Eastern. Is that the two 156's leaving I wonder

Failed Unit · 7 Dec 2019

I must admit it deflects the blame and sounds like they are not at fault.

to me.
Signal fault = network rails problem.

If they said train fault it is down to them. (They purchased the trains after all) - many predicted probably as new rolling stock introductions always have problems. That is why many managers refuse to buy untested stock.

I remember the 158 introductions well. You had hybrid 158 / 156 to help and loco hauled stock. Privatisation has offered some benefits of course, but we have lost the ability BR had to move stuff around.

F Great Eastern · 7 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
If they said train fault it is down to them. (They purchased the trains after all) - many predicted probably as new rolling stock introductions always have problems. That is why many managers refuse to buy untested stock.

There's a reason that nobody has replaced the entire rolling stock of a franchise over such a short period, the level of risk is always going to be high and the cost of minimising that risk with enough contingency is also going to be high because you're going to have to keep two fleets on the go for a considerable period. Having more contingency for longer probably had an effect on the financials of the bid, which is why they didn't do it.

Replacing the entire fleet at once over a short period even with proven product families is a risk because things can still go wrong on fleets that have never operated in the area before. Doing so with unproven stock raises the stakes even further and it makes you look at the comments that First keep making about sticking to disciplined bidding in a new light.

We could be going down this road all over again soon, with the poorly performing Aventra trains replacing Golden Spanner award winners with the whole fleet right at the start of the bathtub chart, things won't be pretty and we might have to steal C2C old moniker soon! My view is the same as it was two years ago, too much is being done too soon.

The operations side must be tearing their hair out at the current situation they find themselves in. According to reports on here, they had little say in the bid and the Engineering Director at time of appointment to GA only had a background in aviation, when clearly an experienced hand at rolling stock introduction programs would have been beneficial.

LAX54 · 7 Dec 2019

F Great Eastern said:
Really unfortunate to see that the signalling problems have got worse overnight and now the fault has spread to the Sudbury Line, I mean this really unfortunate isn't it

In all seriousness, it looks like they have even less units than yesterday available, the wording of the reason on the GA site has slightly changed and is now: "Due to a shortage of trains as a result of the signalling fault."

It's the broken signalling system that is faulty, stopping our working trains from running, the narrative is and it won't be fixed until at least Monday. I wonder what Network Rail think about this?

Incidentally a path from Crown Point to Neville Hill has appeared on RTT for Monday.

The fault has not spread to the Sudbury, or the Felixstowe, just not enough serviceable units to cover all the diagrams needed.

F Great Eastern · 7 Dec 2019

swills said:
The fault has not spread to the Sudbury, or the Felixstowe, just not enough serviceable units to cover all the diagrams needed.

did you not see my sarcastic smiley?

LAX54 · 7 Dec 2019

SOR

F Great Eastern said:
did you not see my sarcastic smiley?

sorry missed that !

although that may well be the perception many of the ;public have, via the info given out to them

86246 · 7 Dec 2019

swills said:
SOR

sorry missed that ! although that may well be the perception many of the ;public have, via the info given out to them

I can’t deny that is a concern where NR doesn’t appear to be able to provide their own side of the events. Although they shouldn’t need to really if the TOC provided a clearer and more honest communication.

LowLevel · 7 Dec 2019

I think Crown Point to Neville Hill is a mk3 coach move for whatever reason, I saw it at Grantham last week, 37 on a few mk3s.

F Great Eastern · 7 Dec 2019

Greater Anglia have responded to peoples concerns with a Q&A
https://www.edp24.co.uk/motoring/greater-anglia-questions-problems-new-trains-1-6413874

Some of my favourite parts are the fact they still maintain that they haven't sent old trains back before the new ones are ready and haven't yet reached the worse case scenario. I guess we should all be thankful that it's not worse seems to be the message. There's also a bit of deflection in there, delays to safety approvals, signalling problems, Stadler, software providers.

If they haven't reached the worst case scenario then is that an admission that they always had an idea that it would be like this or worse and felt that mass cancelling services was simply acceptable and something they were happy to grin and bear, despite the impact on passengers or is this yet more face saving? Someo

Why have you sent your old trains back before the new ones are ready?

We haven't. Replacing every single old train on our network with brand new trains is a very complex project, which has involved careful planning over several years and many different contingencies.

It is not possible to entirely predict the results of safety and performance tests, when we check how the trains interact with the infrastructure, such as signals and points - which is why we drew up these different contingencies, which included worst case scenarios.

Fortunately, we haven't reached these worst-case scenarios and we do have more new trains in our fleet than the number we have returned.

As we continue to increase the number of new trains in service, we will have a wider pool of back-up trains should faults occur.

Ultimately, our fleet of new trains will be larger than our old fleet was.

What's wrong with the new trains?

We are very sorry about the cancellations our customers have experienced recently on branch lines in Norfolk and Suffolk.

This is partly due to train faults on a small number of our old and new trains, which have affected several services. Some of our services have also been delayed by signalling problems.

Where our new trains have had issues, these are mostly software-related. The train manufacturer, Stadler, is working closely with the software provider on updates. Each update has to receive the correct safety approvals to be uploaded onto the train, but it then immediately improves the performance of all of the new trains.

Why do these trains develop faults after all the testing that you've carried out?

Even after extensive testing on the network, unfortunately problems sometimes crop up once new trains are in passenger service - this is very normal for any new trains. It could be because they've accumulated more miles or encountered different conditions than during the test period.

If this happens, we need to get the problem fixed quickly and work out what to do to stop it from reoccurring - and this is what we are doing with the trains' manufacturer, Stadler.

We have every confidence in these high-quality new trains. Ultimately, they will offer a more reliable service and be a fantastic boost for the region.

When you buy a car you never get all of these problems - you just drive it away from the show room and it's fine. So why isn't it the same for trains?

Trains do not roll off a production line. We're buying 169 trains in total from two different manufacturers, whereas the most efficient car factory makes 115 cars an hour. A train doesn't come off the shelf and ready to roll into passenger service. Our trains are tailor-made for our passenger requirements. They have to work on our infrastructure - tracks, signals, points, overhead wires and so on - across every route - which is a great deal more complicated than taking a car onto the road.

It is normal for new trains to experience a few glitches as they run-in. Customers are already enthusiastically welcoming the many improvements these new trains bring such as more seats, plug and USB points, wifi, gold-standard accessibility, better passenger information screens and modern air conditioning/heating. We are confident they will soon benefit from improved reliability too.

Why have you returned the old trains from best to worst order, surely it would have been better the other way around?

We started planning the hand back of our old trains a year ago and although we built in several contingencies, which class of train was handed back first depended on circumstances beyond our control such as where the leasing company was sending them to after us.

We have continued to maintain our old trains, right to the last, and in fact our engineers recently won an independent industry top award for their maintenance of the single carriage class 153 trains, based on the mileage they accumulated before developing a fault.

How long before it gets better?

We are working very hard with the train manufacturer, Stadler, to get all faults fixed as quickly as possible and prevent them from reccurring.

We're also continuing to train more drivers and test further routes. As each week passes, we will be accepting more new trains into passenger service and putting them on further routes, so the situation should improve as each week progresses.

We are very sorry for delays and cancellations that you've suffered up to now and we can assure you that we're doing all we can to make things better.

It's also very much along the same lines that Transformeren was ploughing a few days ago.

Everything you read suggests that it's not really going to get much better anytime soon. I would advise people who need to travel on the local lines to seek other arrangements for the foreseeable future, be that car (if you drive) bus (unless it doesn't run because the subsidy was removed) or taxi (if you can afford to).

gingerheid · 7 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
I must admit it deflects the blame and sounds like they are not at fault.

to me.
Signal fault = network rails problem.

If they said train fault it is down to them. (They purchased the trains after all)

Quite. And it seems to be working some of the time if you look at some of the replies to complaints on Twitter:

@rayleighmartin
You do realise that signaling has nothing to do with GA don't you?

@SuffolkFFC
Signals tracks and overhead wires are all on to Network Rail, not GA might want to educate yourself before bitching

I'm lucky enough to have an understanding employer that has been letting people work wacky hours / partly from home, and that I can drive (I just hate doing it), and that I can afford to rent a room in a shared house in Ipswich until this is over (but I prefer to be in my oen place...).

For people that are really dependant on this... they're stuffed

I know it won't be a record, but there's a remarkable number of return journeys that join an elite club of failure by not having operated on any day last week.

Trainfan344 · 7 Dec 2019

My friend caught a 755 from Lowestoft to Norwich yesterday, they reported that Stradler were checking the wheels and the train upon arrival at Norwich.

mawallace · 7 Dec 2019

Had to smile - Radio 2 today has been saying that

Marks Tey - Sudbury
Felixstowe - Ipswich and
Ipswich to Peterbrough cancelled due to points failure! Not sure where they got that from!

dk1 · 7 Dec 2019

Trainfan344 said:
My friend caught a 755 from Lowestoft to Norwich yesterday, they reported that Stradler were checking the wheels and the train upon arrival at Norwich.

All trains are being checked at terminals whether it be Network Rail, Stadler, GA technicians or even a cursory check by drivers if requested by the signaller. We are all in this together.

hooverboy · 7 Dec 2019

Trainfan344 said:
My friend caught a 755 from Lowestoft to Norwich yesterday, they reported that Stradler were checking the wheels and the train upon arrival at Norwich.

interesting.
Are they expecting wheelslip/wheelflats?

is this down to excessive torque when the driver opens her up or grabby brakes?(I thought they were rheostatic)
what amounts to 2 pairs of powered bogies for a 4 car unit shouldn't be a problem but 2000bhp going through them might be when track adhesion conditions are adverse.

I'm not sure I'm fully on board with the "signalling" issues, as these have been running for the best part of 6 months seemingly without much incident on this front.
I guess their first winter would give a bit more environmental proving though- even though velim test track in czech republic can be pretty brutal at this time of year.

westcoaster · 7 Dec 2019

dk1 said:
All trains are being checked at terminals whether it be Network Rail, Stadler, GA technicians or even a cursory check by drivers if requested by the signaller. We are all in this together.

Are the stadler units tread brakes or disk brakes, only reason I ask is the older sprinter units have tread brakes so clean the wheels, where as a unit with disk brakes would not clean the wheelsets, leading to contamination and loss of detection.

LAX54 · 7 Dec 2019

hooverboy said:
interesting.
Are they expecting wheelslip/wheelflats?

is this down to excessive torque when opens her up or grabby brakes?(I thought they were rheostatic)

Wheelslip is a risk with all units / locos, but this is contamination, combo of leaves, and rust it seems, to me, who really has not got a clue about this sort of thing, seems like some sort of wheel profile issue ?

dk1 · 7 Dec 2019

westcoaster said:
Are the stadler units tread brakes or disk brakes, only reason I ask is the older sprinter units have tread brakes so clean the wheels, where as a unit with disk brakes would not clean the wheelsets, leading to contamination and loss of detection.

They have 'scrubbers' which are like a block that should clean the surface of the wheel. Sadly they are not performing as well as intended.

Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

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