Precisely most systems are quite safe as long as they are respected and people don't take risks the railways would not be allowed to use them otherwise
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Man electrocuted and burned at Birmingham new street
- Thread starter Edders23
- Start date
- Status
Precisely most systems are quite safe as long as they are respected and people don't take risks the railways would not be allowed to use them otherwise
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Last edited:
philthetube
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 3,762
Sure I saw a pic of a spotter standing on a metal ladder on a platform edge with overhead lines taking a pic, both systems are safe if respected and dangerous if not.
Isn’t the ORR fuss about selfie sticks etc contacting the pantograph horns, which are nearer than the wires?
furnessvale
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 4,582
Are the horns live, and if they are, do they need to be?
No, but the maintenance guys would have to think about it if you dropped it on the track (as many people do!)
In which case I'm sure they would retrieve it at an appropriate time (i.e when the current was switched off) as they've been doing for the past hundred years.
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2016
- Messages
- 5,133
The real risk with third rail is to wildlife - foxes, badgers, deer, hare
And of course to local pet cats
And of course to local pet cats
philthetube
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 3,762
particularly badgers, they have a habit of getting between third rail and running rail as they are not the most agile of creatures, it is rare, (though not unheard of for the others animals listed to be electrocuted, they are far more likely to be hit by trains
edwin_m
Veteran Member
San Francisco is cable-hauled so not really relevant here (it also has electric streetcars but they use conventional overhead line). I'm not aware of any tramway still using conduit for electric supply. The modern equivalent is the Alstom APS system I mentioned in my previous post, but I believe this is pretty expensive and with batteries becoming better and cheaper they will probably be the preferred choice if tramways need to be catenary-free for short distances.
However there is the risk of dropping it between platform and a train where it could come into contact with a live shoe, as all the shoes are electrically connected so even those on the other side from the live rail are live. DLR has shields on the platform walls in the places where the shoes normally stop, presumably for this reason. It's probably less likely with a top-contact system and I don't believe it has ever happened, but it's theoretically possible.
If I drop it, I drop it. I don't have to think about it when I'm handling it.
Retrieve what’s left of it, repair the track circuit which would have burnt out, and possibly have to replace both the running rail and con rail.
But yes, they’ve been doing that for about a century. Quite tiresome it is too.
EbbwJunction1
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Mar 2010
- Messages
- 1,565
The signs read: "Carrying Fishing Rods, Helium Balloons, Flags and Selfie Sticks near to live wire is dangerous". They are near to the entrances of all the platforms (including by the lifts), so there's probably around five or six of them.
What they're trying to do, of course, is to educate people on something that most of them have never experienced before unless they've travelled much further afield on the rail system. There's a lot of signs - "Live Wires above / below" - on the bridges, and I think that they've been going into the schools to tell the kids not to go on the line.
What they're trying to do, of course, is to educate people on something that most of them have never experienced before unless they've travelled much further afield on the rail system. There's a lot of signs - "Live Wires above / below" - on the bridges, and I think that they've been going into the schools to tell the kids not to go on the line.
Robin Edwards
Member
- Joined
- 1 Dec 2013
- Messages
- 370
Absolutely AM9 but I wasn't aware I was responding here to you personally. Your points on arcing are well made and yes, this wouldn't occur with 750V dc
Mikey C
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 6,850
I've noticed warning messages to fishermen telling them not to fish underneath National Grid overhead power lines, even though they must be at least a 100 feet in the air.
Yes but non live designs being looked at.
Wet fishing line does conduct though...
Esker-pades
Established Member
Here's a Public Service Broadcast from the '80s.
Narrator: "Carbon fibre poles conduct electricity. Don't fish near cables."
(This was shown to me in school, framed as follows: "now who wants to spend 20 minutes watching videos of kids getting electrocuted?" Yes, it was the end of term, and it was quite funny.)
Apparently, despite earlier rumours to the contrary, the young man is still alive, though I suspect he’ll not be playing football again (he’s allegedly a former promising player).
3 Virgin Trains barrier staff deserve medals for extinguishing him, and for those wondering why it happened, by all accounts, it’s a night out in Snobs that has ended badly.
3 Virgin Trains barrier staff deserve medals for extinguishing him, and for those wondering why it happened, by all accounts, it’s a night out in Snobs that has ended badly.
I'd be amazed if that were necessary. I never heard it happen on LU while I worked there. I would think that the supply was powerful enough to burn the thing out and hardly notice it, even if the contact was excellent, which is highly unlikely. In any case, any damage to the rail would be a small dent, which the collector shoes would hardly be perturbed by.
Class 73 on GatEx duty welded to track and 3rd rail near Battersea park (can't remember what the metallic debris was), 455 welded to track and 3rd rail at Guildford post retractioning, the Aluminum drink can at Gatwick ~2.75 years ago...
LU 4th rail is some what different to NR 3rd rail especially regards return current and track circuit wiring.
Whilst I don’t have figures, there are regular occurrences of objects shorting out the con rail / running rail and blowing track circuits and/or causing rail damage. Around once a week or so on average I’d say. There was one a few days ago.
Sleeperwaking
Member
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2018
- Messages
- 166
Provided the pantograph is touching the contact wire, then yes, the pantograph horns are live in the UK. Insulated horns are used in Europe, and there's people looking at whether they could be used in the UK.
furnessvale
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 4,582
It would make sense. Not only from a passenger safety point of view, but it would also move live equipment 150mm or so further away in tight platform situations saving potential rebuilds.
MarkWiles
Member
- Joined
- 21 Jul 2019
- Messages
- 66
Just out of curiosity, what sort of voltage is passing through the wires that sometimes hang on the back of the gantries and sometimes run over platforms? Not being "Dennis Expert" on overheads I'm never quite sure what function the line has, I assume some sort of return feed, and given I've seen them over the back of the platform I assume a safe voltage, but I do wonder if "safe" is a relative thing.
As for the signage re selfie sticks, sorry, but as taking a selfie is not an essential activity on a railway station I have no problem with NR warning against their use if it drums home to the self obsessed and brainless that electric railways can be lethal if they are not respected. We have had youngsters taking selfies on level crossings in the past and when it comes to common sense the public are as thick as mince. Hence the nanny knows best attitude. Joe and Joanna Numpty need that level of finger wagging to catch themselves on.
As for the signage re selfie sticks, sorry, but as taking a selfie is not an essential activity on a railway station I have no problem with NR warning against their use if it drums home to the self obsessed and brainless that electric railways can be lethal if they are not respected. We have had youngsters taking selfies on level crossings in the past and when it comes to common sense the public are as thick as mince. Hence the nanny knows best attitude. Joe and Joanna Numpty need that level of finger wagging to catch themselves on.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 31,418
I think in broad terms if any bare “other wires” apart from the contact or catenary are mounted on full size insulators they’ll be at 25 kV, otherwise if not they’ll be some sort of return or earthing conductor, tending towards 0 volts. But sometimes wires above station platforms carrying the supply voltage are insulated.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I'm pretty sure there's a rule that nothing above platforms can be at 25kV. If the OLE is supported by cantilevers from masts at the back of the platform there is always a pair of insulators above the platform edge.
The return conductors are indeed carrying a voltage close to zero, albeit they still carry high current. Also, under certain fault conditions, they can carry higher voltage, but this is rare (and I’d be lying if I said I understood the conditions under which this is possible).
Two totally different schemes with very different cost drivers.
The SWML is a two-track railway with a total running rail length of less than 170miles. It is power limited and just about manages to allow 450tonne 2400kW trains to to reach 100mph. No electric freight heavy freight could be carried.
The WCML scheme Euston to Birmingham is a mostly four track railway with a total running length approaching 400 miles. There are also extensive sidings and stabling points (especially at its southern end) fully wired. It's power distribution system and OLE is capable of running all required express passenger and heavy freight services of the day, - the express passenger services running much of the distance at 110mph. There was also some gauge enhancement to allow adequate clearance for OLE. Some bridges were rebuilt to modern standards.
The two schemes are not comparable, hence the difference in costs. However, the structures on the SWML are the same ones that were built 100+ years ago so many of them will be due for replacement sometime soon so that cost (suitably de-escalated to the '60s ECs) would need to be considered in a valid comparison.The WCML scheme Euston to Birmingham is a mostly four track railway with a total running length approaching 400 miles. There are also extensive sidings and stabling points (especially at its southern end) fully wired. It's power distribution system and OLE is capable of running all required express passenger and heavy freight services of the day, - the express passenger services running much of the distance at 110mph. There was also some gauge enhancement to allow adequate clearance for OLE. Some bridges were rebuilt to modern standards.
- Status