Underground trains running nonstop through stations?

Peregrine 4903 · 6 Dec 2019

On Thursday I was travelling to Southwark for a meeting and boarded the Northern Line Bank Brank at Kings Cross. I did not expect the Northern Line Bank branch to be as busy as peak Victoria Line especially as it was 9:30.

The one thing I ws amazed by was how quickly it takes up passengers. Despite the platform being so full not everyone could fit on the platform, I managed to comfortably get on the third train. I digress.

However at Angel station it was then suddenly announced that the train was not stopping at Old Street station, and Old Street station wasn't closed we just ran nonstop through it. We went through Old Street station at about 15mph with passengers on the platform.

Is this is a regular occurence?

A London Undergdround signalman told me that Underground stations had to stop at every station on the Network even if they are running nonstop through it unless its been written that can run nonstop through them such as the Piccadilly line through Turnham Green. So this seems to contradict that?

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DavyCrocket · 6 Dec 2019

The requirement to pass by the station starter at 5mph (with some exceptions) only applies to conventional signalled lines and not those such as the Northern, Jubilee or resignalled SSR Where there are no signals

Peregrine 4903 · 6 Dec 2019

DavyCrocket said:
The requirement to pass by the station starter at 5mph (with some exceptions) only applies to conventional signalled lines and not those such as the Northern, Jubilee or resignalled SSR Where there are no signals

I did not know that, thankyou so much for telling me.

philthetube · 6 Dec 2019

also dosen't apply on the north end of the met where many stations are line speed.

Mojo · 6 Dec 2019

Peregrine 4903 said:
However at Angel station it was then suddenly announced that the train was not stopping at Old Street station, and Old Street station wasn't closed we just ran nonstop through it. We went through Old Street station at about 15mph with passengers on the platform.

Is this is a regular occurence?

This would have been because of overcrowding.

It is a regular occurrence in that you can expect at least one train to not stop at at least one station that it is still open a day.

Peregrine 4903 · 6 Dec 2019

Mojo said:
This would have been because of overcrowding.

It is a regular occurrence in that you can expect at least one train to not stop at at least one station that it is still open a day.

I presumed it was because of overcrowding.

I don't travel down the Bank Branch of the Northern line very often and I'm very glad I don't have to as the overcrowding seems ridiculous between at least Kings Cross and Moorgate. Its about as bad as the Victoria line and I didn't think any line could be possibly as bad as the Victoria Line.

Dstock7080 · 6 Dec 2019

Old Street was non-stopped yesterday morning 0854-0901 because of a defective escalator.

bluegoblin7 · 6 Dec 2019

Peregrine 4903 said:
A London Undergdround signalman told me

There are no 'signalman' on the Underground and haven't been for the best part of forty years. Service Operators and Service Controllers carry out the function of Signaller.

Peregrine 4903 · 6 Dec 2019

bluegoblin7 said:
There are no 'signalman' on the Underground and haven't been for the best part of forty years. Service Operators and Service Controllers carry out the function of Signaller.

I meant a Service operator or controller.

He used to work Edgware Road signal box until it closed recently.

philthetube · 7 Dec 2019

known to staff as signallers or signal operators it they work in the boxes, (cabins) outside London.

bramling · 8 Dec 2019

philthetube said:
known to staff as signallers or signal operators it they work in the boxes, (cabins) outside London.

Certainly not uncommon to hear both cabin staff and those working in the big rooms using the term “signalman”. Been a railway term for generations and unlikely to die out.

Mikey C · 8 Dec 2019

Dstock7080 said:
Old Street was non-stopped yesterday morning 0854-0901 because of a defective escalator.

That makes sense. I don't recall ever seeing Northern Line trains going straight through open stations before

bramling · 8 Dec 2019

Mikey C said:
That makes sense. I don't recall ever seeing Northern Line trains going straight through open stations before

It’s very common, and will be one of the potential first actions the station supervisor will take if a part of his station is starting to become hazardously overcrowded. Closing the station to incoming passengers is normally the first response, but this doesn’t help if there is a platform, passageway or circulating area that is overcrowding at that moment.

Very common particularly at the stations with cross-platform interchange, such as Euston, Camden or Stockwell, and will most often be seen when one or other line is disrupted.

There was of course the incident a little while back when a train ran non-stop down the Bank branch which was a combination of signalling staff error and the way the software is designed, but perhaps less said about that the better!

Busaholic · 8 Dec 2019

bramling said:
There was of course the incident a little while back when a train ran non-stop down the Bank branch which was a combination of signalling staff error and the way the software is designed, but perhaps less said about that the better!

That could have been very frightening to anyone who remembered the Moorgate crash on the Northern City where the train sped through Old Street before crashing through the buffers at Moorgate and into the dead-end wall. Was any announcment made to passengers on board in an attempt to reassure them?

Dstock7080 · 8 Dec 2019

Busaholic said:
That could have been very frightening to anyone who remembered the Moorgate crash on the Northern City where the train sped through Old Street before crashing through the buffers at Moorgate and into the dead-end wall. Was any announcment made to passengers on board in an attempt to reassure them?

The "Moorgate" train stopped normally at Old Street and 1938 Stock were not fitted with P.A equipment.

simple simon · 8 Dec 2019

bramling said:
There was of course the incident a little while back when a train ran non-stop down the Bank branch which was a combination of signalling staff error and the way the software is designed, but perhaps less said about that the better!

Was that when part of an engineering train broke free and ran downhill, gaining speed whilst on the steep downhill incline on the Golders Green branch tunnels - and a normal passenger train had to travel in "emergency: flee for your life" mode to avoid being whacked by it? Fortunately it was able to be sent via one branch at Camden Town and the runaway diverted via the other branch. Also fortunately this happened very early in the morning so there were hardly any passenger trains about and before computerised signalling had been installed.

Mojo · 8 Dec 2019

simple simon said:
Was that when part of an engineering train broke free and ran downhill, gaining speed whilst on the steep downhill incline on the Golders Green branch tunnels - and a normal passenger train had to travel in "emergency: flee for your life" mode to avoid being whacked by it? Fortunately it was able to be sent via one branch at Camden Town and the runaway diverted via the other branch. Also fortunately this happened very early in the morning so there were hardly any passenger trains about and before computerised signalling had been installed.

No.

There was an incident whereby a train was running out of service, cannot remember why, presumably defective or something else, and the train behind which was in customer service, also took the command to run non stop and thus ran through several stations without stopping until the Train Operator caused the train to emergency brake.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...four-stations-without-stopping-rush-hour.html

simple simon · 10 Dec 2019

I thought that it was only possible to tell a train to non-stop one station, but maybe that applies to older systems?

Dstock7080 · 10 Dec 2019

simple simon said:
I thought that it was only possible to tell a train to non-stop one station, but maybe that applies to older systems?

Manual Lines can non-stop at any number of stations.
Automatic Lines can also be given commands to non-stop multiple stations.

bluegoblin7 · 10 Dec 2019

Dstock7080 said:
Manual Lines can non-stop at any number of stations.
Automatic Lines can also be given commands to non-stop multiple stations.

This didn’t apply to legacy ATO systems, and my memory is saying that the Central line also can’t non-stop multiple stations because of how the codes to non-stop are given (it could non-stop by not opening doors, but the system would stop the train at the station and require the ATO start buttons to be restroked. This doesn’t apply to Seltrac or DTG-R.)

bramling · 10 Dec 2019

simple simon said:
I thought that it was only possible to tell a train to non-stop one station, but maybe that applies to older systems?

Central Line I believe is a maximum of one or possibly two stations, or at least it was - others may know if it’s been upgraded at any point. This limitation only applies to the ATO auto driver, in coded manual it’s possible to non-stop as much as is desired, likewise it’a also possible (although not permitted by the rules) to run through at full speed. I guess this is all to do with the ATO, as IIRC the ATO data is uploaded to the train at each station for the next two sections, so missing more than one results in the train having no ATO data.

The other lines work differently in that they actually impose a speed profile through a closed platform - for example TBTC will reduce the target speed to 18 mph which is enforced in ATO and PM. As the train is in constant communication with the system there is no limitation - indeed one way of getting an unplanned move overnight to run more quickly is to close all the platforms. (It’s also a way of cheating on the training simulator as closing all the platforms will allow the railway to make up 10 to 20 minutes of late running - if only the real railway didn’t have those pesky passengers to worry about!).

Note also it’s sort of procedure that multiple platforms shouldn’t be being closed, as this means an incapacitated train operator wouldn’t be identified promptly as the train would keep moving. Changing to protected manual is one way round this as this then enables the OPO alarm as mitigation.

Busaholic · 10 Dec 2019

Dstock7080 said:
The "Moorgate" train stopped normally at Old Street and 1938 Stock were not fitted with P.A equipment.

I obviously misremembered about Old Street - I thought the train went through non-stop. I meant on the RECENT non-stop was a P.A. announcement made? I realise on the crash train that there would have been no announcements, even if the 1938 stock had been P.A. equipped.

Busaholic · 10 Dec 2019

simple simon said:
Was that when part of an engineering train broke free and ran downhill, gaining speed whilst on the steep downhill incline on the Golders Green branch tunnels - and a normal passenger train had to travel in "emergency: flee for your life" mode to avoid being whacked by it? Fortunately it was able to be sent via one branch at Camden Town and the runaway diverted via the other branch. Also fortunately this happened very early in the morning so there were hardly any passenger trains about and before computerised signalling had been installed.

I remember the incident as being on the Highgate branch and it was around about there that the train broke free and chased a passenger train down the line: luckily a signal controller saw what was going on and took emergency action, informing the driver of the passenger train who in turn informed his obviously frightened passengers and ran through all stations on green, non-stop, through Camden Town and onto the City branch, the engineering train sent via Mornington Crescent which iirc goes slightly uphill at one point before Warren Street? A terrifying incident, which TfL tried to keep under wraps for ages, and thank goodness there were few trains around at that early time.

Bald Rick · 13 Dec 2019

This happened to me on yesterday on the Vic line. Non-stopped at Oxford Circus due to overcrowding, loads of people on the platform. Train was much emptier than normal, and I got to St Pancras a minute quicker which enabled me to get an earlier train. Bliss!

jumble · 16 Dec 2019

philthetube said:
also dosen't apply on the north end of the met where many stations are line speed.

Indeed and going through stations at 50 is the norm on many of the heritage trips
I am confident that Harrow on the Hill is a 5 mph station on platforms 5 and 6 but suspect 1 and 2 are not so restricted

Dstock7080 · 16 Dec 2019

jumble said:
I am confident that Harrow on the Hill is a 5 mph station on platforms 5 and 6 but suspect 1 and 2 are not so restricted

15mph platforms 1 3 4 5 6.
Tripcock testers fitted

jumble · 16 Dec 2019

Many thanks
Is it reasonable to assume from this that tripcock testers can never be passed at over 15mph
My memory of being on an Aylesbury non stop is flawed

philthetube · 16 Dec 2019

Tit a trip cock tester at speed and the train will be tripped.

Scotrail314209 · 17 Dec 2019

I'm sure it isn't uncommon for Green Park to be closed off due to overcrowding.

During my last visit to London the Victoria and Jubilee were running non stop, and honestly even up at the concourse you couldn't move. A PA announcement eventually came on to announce that passengers were to stop repeatedly pressing help points as if it continued they would need to evacuate, in the end we just walked to Piccadilly Circus.

simple simon · 17 Dec 2019

Dstock7080 said:
15mph platforms 1 3 4 5 6.
Tripcock testers fitted

So trains travelling towards Marylebone are not speed restricted - but trains from Marylebone are speed restricted?

Is this 15 mph? (platform 1 Harrow On the Hill) - it was filmed in the days when Fast trains to Chesham (and Amersham) ran non-stop from Finchley Road to Moor Park, in 19 minutes.

Underground trains running nonstop through stations?

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