D6700
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Minster FM are much better informed on these sort of matters than the vast majority of media outlets. The news editor is actually an active member of this forum!
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TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress
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I don’t know if this is in the right place or not, but here goes:
Reading the article on the introduction of the Nova trains in current edition of RAIL magazine , on Page 13 (ominously) the bottom right corner article talks about the 22 excess Class 185’s possibly remaining with TPE. It also talks about TPE possibly taking over the Liverpool to Nottingham route. It states (and I quote):
So, I take it then that the Mk5A’s could have a relatively short life serving Scarborough and Middlesbrough if TPE are awarded the Liverpool to Nottingham route?
Isn’t it rather a waste of a depot at Scarborough designed around the Class 67/Mk5A’s. Also all the driver and route learning etc on the loco hauled stock?
I foresee even more unhappy customers at Scarborough and Middlesbrough when their ‘new’ trains are whisked away from them and they get the Class 185’s back.
Reading the article on the introduction of the Nova trains in current edition of RAIL magazine , on Page 13 (ominously) the bottom right corner article talks about the 22 excess Class 185’s possibly remaining with TPE. It also talks about TPE possibly taking over the Liverpool to Nottingham route. It states (and I quote):
So, I take it then that the Mk5A’s could have a relatively short life serving Scarborough and Middlesbrough if TPE are awarded the Liverpool to Nottingham route?
Isn’t it rather a waste of a depot at Scarborough designed around the Class 67/Mk5A’s. Also all the driver and route learning etc on the loco hauled stock?
I foresee even more unhappy customers at Scarborough and Middlesbrough when their ‘new’ trains are whisked away from them and they get the Class 185’s back.
Jamesrob637
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Unless they're all 6-car 185s
There has been on and off debate on here about the relative loading times for the new end door stock compared to 185's, well this is the official word on that from the latest TPE staff update on the December timetable change:
"1½ minute dwells have been inserted as a minimum for end door stock (i.e. Class
397s, 802s and 68+MkVs) to reflect the greater times to load and unload."
"1½ minute dwells have been inserted as a minimum for end door stock (i.e. Class
397s, 802s and 68+MkVs) to reflect the greater times to load and unload."
blackfive460
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Not me...
In Scarborough I'd be far happier with a pair of 185s. A 6 car set would have more seats than a Mk5a set, they are a little more comfortable and most importantly, more crew will sign them than will sign Mk5a sets which will give us a better chance of actually seeing trains reach us in times of disruption.
978wta
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More seats overall yes but if you take into account that 2x185s would have 2 1st class carriages it will still leave 4 carriages for standard class.
Was at Lime Street at the same time as the 68 plus MarkVas for the first time today and I was waiting for a train at platform 10 from which you could hear the loco (not very loud but a noticeable rumble) from platform I’m going to guess it was platform 2/3 and it was a strange but wonderful experience.
blackfive460
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Those two 1st class carriages would actually have more standard class seats in them than 1st; 18 std/15 1st in each.
185s only have fifteen first class seats in one central area between the two sets of doors. The remainder of the carriage is standard class accommodation one section in conventional seating and the other with six tip up seats or space for two wheelchairs.
Liverpool - Nottingham is 2 hours 36 minutes vs Liverpool - Scarborough and Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough (both 2 hours 57 minutes). Airport - Middlesbrough would most likely lose the Mark Vs and be operated by double 185s. This would allow the option of interworking some Nottingham and Scarborough diagrams rather than having two completely seperate Mark V routes. Double 185s are fine for Airport - Middlesbrough services.
YorkshireBear
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With the depot at Scarborough this would be my guess too. Means less end doors on castlefield corridor too.
fireftrm
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I'd be happy with keeping the 185s, at least they have WiFi
sjpowermac
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The Nova 3 trains will also have WiFi. As I understand it this is the final part of the train to be commissioned.
Would you rather TPE delayed bringing in the new trains until the WiFi was up and running?
https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-3
DannyMich2018
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They're already delayed...Originally planned to enter service autumn 2018, even as now more than 20 months after first set arrived we've got an appaling two sets in daily service with 4 out of 13 in store. Hopefully December timetable Will bring some improvement...
I wouldn't hold your breath... a new timetable can't magic trained traincrew or de-bugged and properly-maintained (i.e. reliable) train-sets out of thin air, even if it is pantomime season!
We can hope that the services have been re-balanced and maybe even reduced so that they run more reliably.
FFFC 57
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These are CAF's first tender steps into the British Inter-city market, they are reintroducing LHCS (what we all want to see once more) so I think patience is the name of the game.
AndrewE You're obviously not suggesting the maintenance is poor and making the train unreliable.
I have got the impression (from here) that trains are being taken out of service not only because no suitably-trained member of staff is available but also because something on the train has stopped working. If I've remembered it correctly then that is pretty poor for new stock that has had several years' test running and then god-knows how much "fault-free" running for each set on top of that. It's not as though it's CAF's first attempt at building trains is it?
Liverpool-Newcastle is a vitally-important trunk route across the North, as are the commuter and suburban services across the regions... The last few days' performance would do credit to a fifth-column subversive group trying to damage the economy. Yet it's Government policies and Company management that are leading the attack on our mobility!
Yet again I am planning a family visit across the Pennines, and I shall go miles out of my way to avoid the trans-Pennine core...
Erniescooper
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You’d be better served getting your information about reliability from places other than here as the actual number of delays attributed to the train in the last four weekly railway period was three
sjpowermac
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There have been three occasions since the start of November when a diagram has been cancelled or part cancelled due to a ‘fault with the train’. On two of those occasions the train completed the remainder of its diagram.
I’ve taken my information from TPE Journey Check, a publicly available source. If you have better information then please do feel free to share it.
I used to post weekly updates but I can’t be bothered anymore due to the general negativity of the thread and that even when presented with facts some people choose to still hold to their misconceptions.
I don’t think the facts support what you are saying.
13.11.2019
68027 plus TP09
1F48 05:55 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool cancelled
1E25 06:56 Liverpool to Scarborough started at Manchester Victoria
The set completed the rest of its diagram.
25.11.2019
68026 plus TP11
1F62 10:41 Scarborough to Liverpool cancelled at Manchester Victoria
07.12.2019
68019 plus TP08
1E37 12:56 Liverpool to Scarborough
Late leaving Liverpool leading to the train being cancelled between York and Scarborough. The set completed the rest of its diagram.
sjpowermac
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You beat me to it
That's still 3 too many faults - and a lot more train services of course - let alone the number of passengers let down on a trunk main line "service" which should be running reliably by now. As others have said here, for some passengers it will have been the last straw...
sjpowermac
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So, @Erniescooper goes to the trouble of replying to you, I do the same and to the best of my knowledge give you the full details. It’s worth bearing in mind that my information is what’s publicly available, it’s perfectly possible that after investigation there actually wasn’t a fault with the train, so my list is very much ‘worst case’.
Go on then, I’ll humour you, what would you say would be an acceptable number of delays attributable to the train?
I’m not in the slightest bit interested in Class 802 or 185 but it might come as a shock to you that those trains also cause delays...
As a passenger (nowadays) I would say none, and I bet most other customers would give the same answer. What is your answer to the question?
I too am not interested in classes of trains, although I do look forward to a trans-Pennine journey on one of these fabled trains that doesn't have a big diesel engine thrashing away under every coach. In fact, I would like to go on something (anything) more than 3 cars long that I can be sure of getting into at Leeds.
I have no idea when it might actually come to pass though. We were promised loco-hauled trains a couple of years ago, but TPE decided that it was beneath their dignity to honour a franchise commitment. I have yet to see a train longer than 3 cars (other than one flashing past in the opposite direction - which might well have been running empty) and am dreading coming home over the Pennines on 23rd Dec. I can go out via the Bentham line, but will probably give in and try the "direct route" home.
D6700
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Which suggests things aren't really quite as bad as the picture being painted...
Don't worry, @sjpowermac will be on holiday from work, so I'll make sure he takes a hammer out to help TPE fix any train problems that day!
Except that they are. If I (as an ex-employee and a seasoned traveller) am wondering whether I want to risk making the journey by rail, what do you think an occasional traveller will conclude? They won't risk it a second time, I can assure you.
I note that you don't try to answer the question posed by sjpowermac: "what would you say would be an acceptable number of delays attributable to the train?"
D6700
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I'm not sure why I would be expected to answer a question posed by another forum user to yourself.
The rest isn't worth replying to, due to the underlying aggressive tone.
The rest isn't worth replying to, due to the underlying aggressive tone.
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Well you joined in the discussion defending TPE. If you are that sensitive, I take it that you can't have a front-line job, or that you haven't bothered reading the discussions about Northern and TPE's cancellations over this weekend.
If you do have a passenger-facing job I can't understand why you don't have more understanding of the passengers' predicament - and the stress that one (or more) bad experience brings to future journeys.
Maybe you just don't actually use the services.
D6700
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I didn't defend TPE at all, I merely pointed out that you can't actually feel quite as strongly as you make out, if you will probably still choose them over a viable alternative.
I even tried to make some light of it, but no, you're evidently desperate to fight anyone and everyone. The truth with TPE is somewhere between the opinions of the ranters and the apologists.
For what it's worth, I last used TPE yesterday to get to Manchester Airport to go on holiday. The airport train before mine was cancelled, so it was full and standing as far as Manchester Piccadilly. I should add that I was using a full price Off Peak Return, because I have no connection with TPE.
I even tried to make some light of it, but no, you're evidently desperate to fight anyone and everyone. The truth with TPE is somewhere between the opinions of the ranters and the apologists.
For what it's worth, I last used TPE yesterday to get to Manchester Airport to go on holiday. The airport train before mine was cancelled, so it was full and standing as far as Manchester Piccadilly. I should add that I was using a full price Off Peak Return, because I have no connection with TPE.
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Mk5a coaches are not the first new rolling stock to be introduced into the UK. Look back at almost all new trains introductions and you'll find stock that was fraught with issues and problems. This stock is generally (now) very good and as has been mentioned, the actual number of breakdowns in service has been minimal. I note your comment of the length of time these trains have been developed and tested. It may interest you to know that out of the new Nova fleets, Class 802 has so far demonstrated a higher failure rate than the Mk5a coaches. Remembering that the AT300 design is extensively tested and is currently used by three operators with over 100 units accepted, maybe you could explain your argument for why brand new stock should not encounter teething issues?
Kind of just answered your own question about why you haven't seen any...? Get yourself to Leeds tomorrow and assuming that all services are running to plan, you'll see a good mixture of three, five and six coach trains all day long!
I think it's pretty clear that @sjpowermac does use the service and is absolutely living and breathing these new trains given the detailed and extensive roundups in this thread for which so many of this community are grateful. I do not have a front-line job, but certainly know exactly of the customer's predicament with the current rail service across the North. This forum is a place of discussion where all members are entitled to their own opinions, but the key word is 'discussion'. This means to listen to other's opinions and formulate your own based on their input. There's no need to be rude or offensive. Politeness goes a long way.
I would suggest that for most of the average passengers once their train is cancelled, the actual reason is fairly academic. And at the moment there are far, far too many TPE passengers finding their train is cancelled. The fact that the train is cancelled is probably inconvenient, maybe in some cases annoying, but it's TPE's whole attitude that grates with many people. They don't seem to care. A previous TPE M.D. would not have stood on York station grinning like a Cheshire Cat next to his "new trains" whilst all around him his company's service is falling to pieces. He would have been taking to passengers explaining the problems and apologising to them. He would make an announcement on TPE services he travelled on and tell passengers he would be walking down the train to answer their queries and concerns. He would never have allowed the service to get to the state it is in today in the first place however. That's the difference between outstanding management and what we have today.
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