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Transpennine Express December 2019 Proposals

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Failed Unit

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What are all the Scottish-based TPE drivers going to do if they have no work? It was reported earlier in this thread that they were going to operate Edinburgh services as far south as York.

You seem to avoid answer the question why is it needed? Who benefits? I lot more people lose out then gain. Just so TPE can take money from LNER and XC.

Surely offering the core route a full service is better than causing massive suffering to run a service that is not needed.

the drivers can still be paid. They don’t need to work. But passengers between York and Manchester deserve the frequency they have got specified in the franchise agreement. Surely this isnt a bad thing to prioritise over a revenue raid?
 
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transmanche

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You seem to avoid answer the question why is it needed?
Avoiding the question? You asked why are they introducing the service. I have merely explained to you a reason why TPE are doing what they are.

If the Scottish drivers are booked to work services as far south as York, then drivers would need to be found from elsewhere to cover that work. It may be that TPE (being they have far more information than you or I) have come to the conclusion that this is the least-worst outcome. Think of the effect such a change would have on the working patterns of Newcastle- or York-based staff. What would the unions say if TPE decided to do that now?

... causing massive suffering...
Do try to get some perspective.
 

Failed Unit

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Ok. So you think it is more important to have trains carrying around fresh air then moving passengers.(when you haven’t got enough resources to do both). You should get a job with dft. orcats raiding first. Leaving passengers on platforms is ok as long as tpe are draining money from Lner and Xc.

As for suffering- I think the users on the Scarborough line are suffering. Especially if they rely on the train to get to work. They have no alternative when Tpe cancel all their trains. An Edinburgh passenger can use LNER or XC - the very trains you believe TPE should be raiding. I just don’t understand why this raiding is such a priority in your view.

we will leave it there. I think passengers comfort should have priority. The drivers can still be used after all. Between Newcastle and York. Plenty of trains to get them between Edinburgh and Newcastle after all.
 
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transmanche

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Ok. So you think it is more important to have trains carrying around fresh air then moving passengers
Did I say that? No, that's just a straw man.

I just don’t understand why this raiding is such a priority in your view.
I didn't say that either. Another tedious straw man argument.

I'll remind you again. I do not accept your premise that the TPE service to Edinburgh via Newcastle is solely an 'ORCATS raid' rather than a franchise obligation. It's in the franchise agreement: fact. It's in the Train Service Requirement: fact. That's it. All the other nonsense you've tried to attribute to me simply because I don't agree with you is just that. Nonsense.

Do not confuse me with Transpennine Express. Do not assume that I agree with everything they do. And do not expect factually incorrect assertions to go unchallenged.
 

Failed Unit

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So why MUST it be delivered in December 2019? GTR have Cambridge- Maidstone East in the Franchise agreement. Due May 2018. They haven’t implemented. No reason the Orcats raid / Franchise commitment can’t wait until May 2020 for the greater good of the passengers. Am I missing something? It is ok for GTR and Northern (York - Scarborough) to miss franchise commitments but not TPE?

Northern are no introducing York - Scarborough for the same reason I am suggesting TPE delay. They are not ready to resource it and don’t want to inflict suffering on the rest of the franchise. Good management if you ask me.
 

transmanche

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So why MUST it be delivered in December 2019?
Is that a rhetorical question, or are you directing it at me?

Short answer: I have no idea. Long answer: neither you, not I (nor indeed many people) will know the real reason. It may be that the penalties for not meeting that franchise obligation on time are large - much larger than for not meeting other franchise obligations on time.

GTR have Cambridge- Maidstone East in the Franchise agreement. Due May 2018. They haven’t implemented.
Apples and pears. As I understand it, the GTR franchise is a management contract. I'm not familiar with the details of the TSR, but I do know a remedial plan was put in place for the franchise and that infrastructure issues have affected the capacity of the 'core'.

It is ok for GTR and Northern (York - Scarborough) to miss franchise commitments but not TPE?
But again, that's a false equivalence.
 

Failed Unit

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I will leave it with the following:

they are not meeting their franchise obligations today. (As anyone living in Scarborough will tell you) which they are hopefully getting penalised for.

if they don’t make it to Edinburgh in December, so be it. It isn’t as if anyone is dependent on this service. (But they are on the core network where they let people down daily and have done since May 2018)
 

route101

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One thing i noticed with the TPE services no advancetickets betwen Newcastle and Ednburgh when i looked.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Only half a service being offered until 5 January on Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh:
https://tpexpress.co.uk/travel-updates/december-2019-timetable-changes

The following services will not run:

Monday to Saturday until 04 January
0520 to Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh

0824, 0924, 1024, 1224, 1524 & 1824 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh

1925 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, and Newcastle

2024 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester-le-Street and Newcastle

2308 to Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York

Saturdays until 04 January

1824 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, and Newcastle

Sundays until 05 January

1124, 1224, 1525 & 1625 to Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh

2108 to Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester-le-Street and Newcastle

2308 to Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York
 

Boysteve

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So the new timetable is a mess already. No running Edinburgh extensions is fine in the short term but having to precancel trains on the main network is an absolute disgrace. Transpennine Express management are some of the most ridiculous human beings to ever exist, certainly on a par with Northern. Leo Goodwin (if he remains in place as TPEx CEO) should be put in stocks at either Victoria or Leeds station so that we can through rotten fruit at his face. There are some people on this forum who sympathise with TPEx's plight well shame on them I have zero respect or time for such people.
 

Glenn1969

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I happen to think passengers travelling North from Leeds in particular will be pleased to have a choice to get to Scotland other than the currently overcrowded XC Edinburgh service. XC wanted to increase to 2 per hour via Leeds but I believe were refused permission by DaFT
 

xotGD

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Hold on, have I got this right? TPE are cutting services between Leeds and Manchester in order to run trains between Newcastle and Edinburgh?

Seriously?

Madness, and total contempt for passengers.
 

PG

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One thing i noticed with the TPE services no advancetickets betwen Newcastle and Ednburgh when i looked.
That'll be an attempt to avoid overcrowding given that there are now some 3 hour gaps between EDB and NCL and some passengers will already have TPE only tickets (myself included) so the first service after any of these gaps is likely to be rammed!
Only half a service being offered until 5 January on Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh:
https://tpexpress.co.uk/travel-updates/december-2019-timetable-changes
A shame TPE haven't arranged ticket acceptance with LNER and XC instead their advice from the link you provided is:
"TPE" said:
What if I have already booked a ticket and the service is one of those that is no longer operating?

If you are travelling with a TPE ticket, then this will be valid on any of the other TPE services available on the date of travel or one day either side.
Not happy <(
 

Bevan Price

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Hold on, have I got this right? TPE are cutting services between Leeds and Manchester in order to run trains between Newcastle and Edinburgh?

Seriously?

Madness, and total contempt for passengers.

It is not just Leeds & Manchester that suffers - the list posted above (#159) represents the loss of about half of the TP Newcastle services out of Liverpool.
 

td97

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A big "stuff you" to the pax at Newton le Willows (especially) and Chester le St too. Merry Christmas from TPE.
 

_toommm_

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Not happy (

It's happened to me, albeit only between Leeds and Victoria.

You can, of course, tweet them and ask for a seat reservation on the next TPE service. Also, if you will now arrive more than half an hour late than the arrival time of the original train you booked onto that has been removed from the timetable, you can claim Delay Repay too after your journey.
 

Failed Unit

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Hold on, have I got this right? TPE are cutting services between Leeds and Manchester in order to run trains between Newcastle and Edinburgh?

Seriously?

Madness, and total contempt for passengers.
Yep. That was my point earlier. Run 100% of services between Newcastle (or York) and Liverpool. 0% north of Newcastle. This is an Orcats raid after all. The service is not needed so it should wait until it can be resourced without impacting the core network.
 

Glenn1969

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I think it probably is needed to take pressure off the overcrowded XC service from Leeds to Edinburgh but only for that reason
 

Failed Unit

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I think it probably is needed to take pressure off the overcrowded XC service from Leeds to Edinburgh but only for that reason

but it isn’t that overcrowded. I preferred to change at York for a nicer train.

I have never see anyone needing to stand between Edinburgh and Leeds. (Newcastle already has direct TPE services). I have see many people standing between Leeds and Manchester. The part of the route they are cutting services from for the orcats raiding service.
 
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Glenn1969

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They're not. They're cutting Edinburgh trains to make sure the Scarborough trains run reliably and for the 3 week period that has the least number of business passengers. Unless of course the full timetable from 5th Jan still proves undeliverable
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I think it probably is needed to take pressure off the overcrowded XC service from Leeds to Edinburgh but only for that reason

(York-) Newcastle-Edinburgh already has 2xLNER and 1xXC per hour.
It doesn't "need" more services, especially if it means depriving the core route of the regular schedule.
 

Glenn1969

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Leeds only has the 1 XC. Most passengers are for whatever reason reluctant to change trains- think there may be suppressed demand
 

Failed Unit

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They're not. They're cutting Edinburgh trains to make sure the Scarborough trains run reliably and for the 3 week period that has the least number of business passengers. Unless of course the full timetable from 5th Jan still proves undeliverable
These trains are getting cut throughout. So I don’t think someone travelling from Manchester to Leeds is going to be impressed that the train they used to catch is withdrawn so TPE can run some trains to Edinburgh instead as an Orcats raid. Liverpool- Manchester’s service cut in half compared with today. Why run to Edinburgh to the detriment of existing passengers when passengers have managed for years without it?
 

Failed Unit

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Leeds only has the 1 XC. Most passengers are for whatever reason reluctant to change trains- think there may be suppressed demand
I was more then happy to change. But XC service leave Edinburgh very empty. It is not reasonable that core passengers have their service cut even for 4 weeks.
 

JonathanH

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They're not. They're cutting Edinburgh trains to make sure the Scarborough trains run reliably and for the 3 week period that has the least number of business passengers. Unless of course the full timetable from 5th Jan still proves undeliverable

Surely not, isn't it the case that no TPE traincrew know both 802s and 68+Mk5?

Therefore, that different depots work Liverpool Lime Street to Edinburgh and Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough. Given the latter is only four 68+Mk5 and three 185 diagrams from the timetable change, does that mean that the traincrew who could work Liverpool Lime Street to Edinburgh trains are going to cover 185 diagrams on Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough?
 

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It's happened to me, albeit only between Leeds and Victoria.

You can, of course, tweet them and ask for a seat reservation on the next TPE service. Also, if you will now arrive more than half an hour late than the arrival time of the original train you booked onto that has been removed from the timetable, you can claim Delay Repay too after your journey.
Indeed, since its part of a split ticket journey the arrival time at my destination will be over 3 hours late.

However if they'd arrange ticket acceptance with either LNER or XC arrival would be <1 hour late which is what I'd prefer.
 

transmanche

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Be interested to see what new business they are going after here. Do tell?
We've been through this again and again. If the DfT didn't want them to operate to Edinburgh, they would have restricted the franchise agreement to prohibit it and they certainly would not have included it in the Train Service Requirement.

Just because you're obsessed by assuming it's an ORCATS raid does not make it so. Repetition is not fact. Oh and before you start building your straw man arguments again: no, I'm not particularly happy that about a third of TPE services from Newcastle to Manchester have been cancelled.

But what I can do is understand that things on the railway are often far more complicated than they seem. Rather than just assume that TPE is made up of a bunch of money-grabbing so-and-sos, I can see that whatever they do to mitigate the problem is going to leave some passengers unhappy.

Personally, I think this is one of the unfortunate situations where not having a common fleet has come back to bite them on the bum - but that subject's been done to death already. They've got to deploy drivers and conductors as best they can to ensure that traction and route knowledge match up with the stock available. With the 350s gone, there just aren't enough 185s or Novas available to operate everything.

But hey, it's much easier to stamp your feet and repeatedly shout "it's an ORCATS raid!"...
 

Failed Unit

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If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it probably is a duck.

have I ever disputed it is in the franchise agreement? No?

All I have challenged is it should not be started to the detriment of the existing network as it doesn’t provide any passengers any benefits.

what they have done is introduce a service no-one needs where the majority of station pairs can be done on existing franchised TOC. Newcastle- Edinburgh does not need an extra TPH. Liverpool - Leeds does not need to be reduced to 1tph in some hours on what is already an overcrowded route where passengers get left on the platform. (In peak hours I will add)

it is only 4 weeks (Maybe) but following May 2018 and the lesson ls learned DFT should not have allowed this service to be introduced until it can be resourced. How it managed to pass the primary abstraction test we will never know. But as no-one can say what new markets it is serving it is a raid, even if it is in the franchise agreement, as it is only getting business by raiding LNER / XCs revenue. Not creating new business. I guess that is a discussion for a new thread.

when you have limited resources you concentrate them on where they make a difference. The core not the new extension. No different to the GC problems in the past when they preferred running what HSTs they had between London and York rather than York and Sunderland. Why? To get the share of the Orcats. TPE have made the same choice. They won’t lose money by reducing the service frequency between Liverpool and York. The gain lots by introducing the new service. They have focused their limited resources on grabbing money from other operating companies rather than serving those loyal customers they have let down with their poor procurement choices.
 
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