Why are Euston gateline staff so hostile?

Bletchleyite · 8 Dec 2019

Starmill said:
Staff must not make any errors detrimental to the customer when working on revenue protection. This isn't unusual or controversial, it's just the way that it is.

Yes, this. They MUST get it right. If they are not sure, they must either give the passenger benefit of the doubt (in writing, if necessary), or politely tell the passenger they will need to check, and actually perform that check in a timely manner.

But this is not only happening on the gateline. Avanti Twitter today told someone a Condition 14 split was not valid. This is unacceptable, and so any additional fare that was paid due to this was obtained fraudulently.

The staff MUST be properly trained and tested to ensure they have absorbed that training. All too often these days they are not.

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Ianno87 · 8 Dec 2019

bramling said:
One presumes a large part of the justification for these manual checks is to prevent people with service-specific advances getting on the wrong train, which if nothing else significantly reduces potential hassle and conflict for on-train staff.

How about doing away with such tickets and removing the root cause of the problem?

Then Avanti's ability to manage train by train demand will be significantly diminished, and it'll be back to the Euston 'cattle pens' again when everybody turns up for the 1643 as tgeir 'ideal' train, and just as much confusion instead about peak/off-peak restrictions.

Starmill · 8 Dec 2019

scouseyb123 said:
well i’ve never had an issue as a passenger. Maybe taking responsibility instead of blaming everyone else?

If someone makes a mistake, which results in me being out of pocket, then yes I am going to blame them for it. This has happened to me several times as a result of Virgin Trains' staff.

In many of the cases I've experienced, the company has admitted to making a mistake and apologised. Not all, though.

Ianno87 · 8 Dec 2019

CentralTrainer said:
Is Euston going to get a redesign or overhaul as part of the HS2 plans?

The HS2 side will be completely new, so boarding etc should be far better designed for long distance services in the first place. The existing station will likely be much more of a 'commuter' operation so less fuss about Advances on wrong trains, etc.

yorkie · 8 Dec 2019

IslandDweller said:
... The contrast in attitude and demeanor between airport staff (checking my boarding pass) and the Euston gateline staff (checking my ticket) could not be wider. ....

Indeed.

urbophile said:
The first response of any member of staff should be to assume innocence on the part of the passenger. ...

It appears that some of the staff, whose performance is inadequate, work on the opposite principle; that a ticket is invalid unless it is clear and obvious to them that it is valid.

xc170 said:
....I've never had a please or thank you, usually just a blunt "Where's your railcard?".

that's the way they like it.

falcon said:
Millions of people go through gatelines all over the country without any problem. All they need is a vaid ticket.....

you clearly have not read the many examples that have been posted on this forum (a selection of which I republished above) then. Once you've read my post, you'll have a rather different 'answer' I would hope!

ATW Alex 101 said:
It’s been a problem there for years, not the most welcome or friendly bunch...

Very true.

Mag_seven said:
What a shocking way to speak to a customer (even if you were not actually using VT). In any other business you would be out on your ear for speaking to a customer like that.

If only Virgin had held standards that are comparable to that of other industries! I am fully expecting nothing to change under the new operator.

DarloRich said:
Some people dont know how to behave.

Very true; unfortunately some of those people are employed at gatelines such as Euston.

Energy said:
Euston is run by Network Rail, I'm fairly sure these staff are the responsibility of NR not Virgin/Avanti (I'm not sure which one of the 2 to put at this time).

This is incorrect.

scouseyb123 said:
this is the experience of the vast majority of passengers. The people moaning on this thread cannot admit that they’ve done something wrong and that its everyone else’s fault so blame the staff.

The people moaning about passengers on this thread (all 3 or 4 of you) camnot admit the gateline staff have done something wrong and have a Basil Fawlty style attitude of blaming the passengers. I suggest you read the experiences I quoted above; you surely cannot tell me you have read the concerns and still think all those passengers had done something wrong; if you want to accuse me and others of lying then that's your choice but you are mistaken.

And ultimately I blame the management of the company for providing inadequate training, poor recruitment techniques, and insufficient safeguards in place.

And if anyone who thinks 'the customer is always wrong' won't believe me, then I present this:

AlterEgo said:
I can speak from experience from handling complaints about Euston barrier staff that that’s untrue. But whatever turns you on.

which is about as conclusive as it can get.

I'm sorry but anyone who still refuses to believe all of this overwhelming evidence has zero credibility in my opinion.

LowLevel · 8 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Even in such circumstances, it is not acceptable for them to be rude to passengers. Police Officers are not generally rude when arresting a criminal.

If they aren't able to do that with the appropriate training and support, they need to find a different job.

There are no circumstances whatsoever under which it is, for instance, acceptable for a public facing member of railway staff in uniform to use a swear word, even a mild one, in any context whatsoever.

I've seen plenty of police officers be rude when arresting criminals, it almost seems to be mandatory in the US :lol:

The world is not black and white. Swearing *shouldn't* happen. To say there are no circumstances where it could be acceptable is naive.

I once just about broke my finger having slammed it in a cab door. For about a second I cursed like a trooper until I got hold of myself again with blood running down my arm. The race goers I picked up were initially quite amused until they saw the claret flowing then started offering me tissues etc.

I feel it would be very harsh to discipline me for a such a lapse :lol:

We see and get involved in things that aren't usual for customer service jobs or indeed human beings. Occasionally they produce strong emotional reactions.

Bletchleyite · 8 Dec 2019

LowLevel said:
I've seen plenty of police officers be rude when arresting criminals, it almost seems to be mandatory in the US

The world is not black and white. Swearing *shouldn't* happen. To say there are no circumstances where it could be acceptable is naive.

I once just about broke my finger having slammed it in a cab door. For about a second I cursed like a trooper until I got hold of myself again with blood running down my arm. The race goers I picked up were initially quite amused until they saw the claret flowing then started offering me tissues etc.

I feel it would be very harsh to discipline me for a such a lapse

We see and get involved in things that aren't usual for customer service jobs or indeed human beings. Occasionally they produce strong emotional reactions.

OK, fair point, an accident causing physical pain or a serious physical assault or terrorist attack are probably exceptions. However, shirty passengers with invalid tickets are normal day to day aspects of working as an RPI on a barrier (they shouldn't be, but they are), and so if they can't avoid swearing in such cases they're in the wrong job.

It is, like it or not, part of a customer service job to be sworn at and not swear back. Only some people have the mental strength to do that, and those are the ones who should be in those jobs. My mother used to work in a bank telephone call centre, and often got sworn at, and used to take great pleasure in being excruciatingly polite in return (and in doing her job precisely correctly in terms of what they were or weren't entitled to) - that is the kind of person and attitude that is needed.

Starmill · 8 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
There are no circumstances whatsoever under which it is, for instance, acceptable for a public facing member of railway staff in uniform to use a swear word, even a mild one, in any context whatsoever.

Maybe, but I think that cursing because of bad luck or accidents is completely different to aggressively swearing at someone.

DarloRich · 8 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Even in such circumstances, it is not acceptable for them to be rude to passengers. Police Officers are not generally rude when arresting a criminal.

If they aren't able to do that with the appropriate training and support, they need to find a different job.

There are no circumstances whatsoever under which it is, for instance, acceptable for a public facing member of railway staff in uniform to use a swear word, even a mild one, in any context whatsoever.

I agree entirely. I havent seen anyone other than passengers swear or be rude.

I have seen gate staff be blunt and direct but not overtly rude. Mind I think I have a thicker skin than most posters here!

Bletchleyite · 8 Dec 2019

DarloRich said:
I agree entirely. I havent seen anyone other than passengers swear or be rude.

I have seen gate staff be blunt and direct but not overtly rude. Mind I think I have a thicker skin than most posters here!

Blunt and direct is appropriate to an awkward passenger if that passenger does not have a valid ticket and has got shirty (though not as a first line - that should be "I'm sorry, Sir/Madam, but that ticket is not valid because X[1], you need to use a train after time Y/by TOC Z" or whatever). However, before applying this approach the member of staff needs to be absolutely sure that the ticket is in fact invalid, which seems to be the primary issue with the Euston gateline.

Swearing (even mildly, e.g. "c**p") isn't acceptable at all.

[1] If someone can't do something, ALWAYS explain why.

LowLevel · 8 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
OK, fair point, an accident causing physical pain or a serious physical assault or terrorist attack are probably exceptions. However, shirty passengers with invalid tickets are normal day to day aspects of working as an RPI on a barrier (they shouldn't be, but they are), and so if they can't avoid swearing in such cases they're in the wrong job.

It is, like it or not, part of a customer service job to be sworn at and not swear back. Only some people have the mental strength to do that, and those are the ones who should be in those jobs.

I agree with the sentiment regarding remaining professional though it's certainly not part of the job to be sworn at and not swear back - bodycams should be used to full effect with any such individuals and service denied.

In much the same way as it's not acceptable for a gate line assistant to tell someone to eff off, it goes both ways and for it to be prevented has to be taken seriously rather than accepted as a fact of life.

If the railways took a more proactive approach to denying such individuals service there might a less hostile aura on both sides.

Bletchleyite · 8 Dec 2019

LowLevel said:
I agree with the sentiment regarding remaining professional though it's certainly not part of the job to be sworn at and not swear back - bodycams should be used to full effect with any such individuals and service denied.

I don't mean that such behaviour should be tolerated, and polite denial of service[1] to be removed by the BTP or security guards is an appropriate response, and bodycams a good way of gathering evidence (or just acting as a deterrent). All I mean is that, when dealing with it, it isn't acceptable for the staff to act in an unprofessional manner e.g. by swearing.

[1] "I'm sorry, Sir, but as you have sworn at the staff you are being refused travel and must leave the station now, the Police have been called" - not "you eff off too and get out of my station" - note that this is an example, not something I've heard from the Euston gateline - though I do recall a thread on here in which a member of (Southeastern, I think) staff did indeed use similar phrases in such a situation.

Bletchleyite · 8 Dec 2019

LowLevel said:
If the railways took a more proactive approach to denying such individuals service there might a less hostile aura on both sides.

Yes, call centre staff are trained to hang up having given the caller typically two warnings not to use abusive language. Of course that's a bit easier when you're just on the phone.

Antman · 8 Dec 2019

LowLevel said:
I've seen plenty of police officers be rude when arresting criminals, it almost seems to be mandatory in the US

The world is not black and white. Swearing *shouldn't* happen. To say there are no circumstances where it could be acceptable is naive.

I once just about broke my finger having slammed it in a cab door. For about a second I cursed like a trooper until I got hold of myself again with blood running down my arm. The race goers I picked up were initially quite amused until they saw the claret flowing then started offering me tissues etc.

I feel it would be very harsh to discipline me for a such a lapse

We see and get involved in things that aren't usual for customer service jobs or indeed human beings. Occasionally they produce strong emotional reactions.

Breaking one's finger might be seen as exceptional circumstances but in just about any customer facing jobs staff are expected to behave in a professional manner which obviously means swearing is totally unacceptable.

bramling · 8 Dec 2019

LowLevel said:
I agree with the sentiment regarding remaining professional though it's certainly not part of the job to be sworn at and not swear back - bodycams should be used to full effect with any such individuals and service denied.

In much the same way as it's not acceptable for a gate line assistant to tell someone to eff off, it goes both ways and for it to be prevented has to be taken seriously rather than accepted as a fact of life.

If the railways took a more proactive approach to denying such individuals service there might a less hostile aura on both sides.

Must admit I really don’t like the idea of body cams. Staff wouldn’t and don’t like it if a passenger thrusts a camera in their face at close range (and rightly so), so in my view the reverse is only fair. I regard body cams as provocative and excessively intrusive. If an environment is sufficiently insecure that such devices are required then there’s something wrong.

LowLevel · 8 Dec 2019

bramling said:
Must admit I really don’t like the idea of body cams. Staff wouldn’t and don’t like it if a passenger thrusts a camera in their face at close range (and rightly so), so in my view the reverse is only fair. I regard body cams as provocative and excessively intrusive. If an environment is sufficiently insecure that such devices are required then there’s something wrong.

They work quite well with low level disorder along the lines of 'you need to pay for your train journey' 'eff off' or worse, a physical assault. Trials do seem to indicate they cause common or garden scrotes to modify their behaviour a bit - where they've been used on our patch reports of verbal and physical assaults on staff reduce.

In law the staff have no recourse should a passenger choose to film them and they've come in useful in combatting selective publishing of footage obtained by passengers. Unlike passengers with a camera phone bodycams are at least regulated to some degree.

For me I'd prefer they were just prevented from accessing the premises in the first place.

You are quite correct in that there is something wrong.

yorkie · 8 Dec 2019

Just a reminder the purpose of this thread was to highlight poor behaviour and levels of rudeness among paid staff who have been mistreating customers who held valid tickets.

There have been a huge number of incidents of mistreatment, including incorrect charging, of valid fare payers over the years.

Some apologists for staff who misbehave appear to be using the poor behaviour of a minority of other passengers as some sort of excuse for the mistreatment of legitimate customers by these staff.

I completely and utterly reject any such excuses.

It is a fact that some jobs are going to expose staff to poor behaviour by challenging individuals (I've done such jobs myself so I know what it's like) but anyone in any such job cannot use that as any sort of excuse for the mistreatment of legitimate users of the service they are supposed to be facilitating in providing.

It is also unacceptable for a small number of rail staff to falsely suggest that these legitimate fare payers have done something wrong, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. However the fact that two or three people on this thread have expressed such views does demonstrate, and provide an insight into, the scale of the deep rooted and severe cultural problems that do still exist in some locations within the rail industry.

LowLevel · 8 Dec 2019

yorkie said:
Just a reminder the purpose of this thread was to highlight poor behaviour and levels of rudeness among paid staff who have been mistreating customers who held valid tickets.

There have been a huge number of incidents of mistreatment, including incorrect charging, of valid fare payers over the years.

Some apologists for staff who misbehave appear to be using the poor behaviour of a minority of other passengers as some sort of excuse for the mistreatment of legitimate customers by these staff.

I completely and utterly reject any such excuses.

It is a fact that some jobs are going to expose staff to poor behaviour by challenging individuals (I've done such jobs myself so I know what it's like) but anyone in any such job cannot use that as any sort of excuse for the mistreatment of legitimate users of the service they are supposed to be facilitating in providing.

It is also unacceptable for a small number of rail staff to falsely suggest that these legitimate fare payers have done something wrong, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. However the fact that two or three people on this thread have expressed such views does demonstrate, and provide an insight into, the scale of the deep rooted and severe cultural problems that do still exist in some locations within the rail industry.

In my experience, though there do seem to be some long lasting exceptions, bad apples that eventually spoil the barrel do seem to get weeded out eventually. I'm not quite sure how some places manage to get such a bad overall reputation though because at least where I am people who have regular confrontations with passengers don't last very long. Particularly if the passenger is then found to have legitimate grounds for complaint should one be made.

I suppose the real question is why, in a fairly customer focused organisation like Virgin Trains, do these hotspots persist?

Bletchleyite · 8 Dec 2019

LowLevel said:
I suppose the real question is why, in a fairly customer focused organisation like Virgin Trains, do these hotspots persist?

This is a good question - and it as much applies to the Coach K seat-hogging as that, for instance.

GrimShady · 8 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
This is a good question - and it as much applies to the Coach K seat-hogging as that, for instance.

Ugh don't get me started on that.

coradiafan2000 · 8 Dec 2019

Wow. Reading these posts has been... Interesting to say the least.

I'm quite lucky as I've never had an issue with the gateline staff at Euston, or any other station for that matter. I'm sometimes a bit intimidated by the ones at Manchester Piccadilly, although that's more because of how they never seem to smile and always seem to give me hard stares. Despite this, I've never had a ticket rejected by them.

As a side note, I hear similar horror stories about the staff at Paddington, which is a station I use far more regularly than Euston. I've never once had a bad experience there either. It's interesting just how different people's experiences can be.

Ambient Sheep · 9 Dec 2019

Perhaps it's down to how straightforward or otherwise different regular users' tickets are?

Bletchleyite · 9 Dec 2019

Ambient Sheep said:
Perhaps it's down to how straightforward or otherwise different regular users' tickets are?

Quite possibly. It seems they act with a more bus driver like culture - accept obvious stuff, but you get "sorry mate, you can't use it on here" for anything valid but even slightly obscure from some of them.

VTWC was known not to like Condition 14 splits, for instance, and this is going to rub off on the staff. Indeed, just yesterday I caught out (and corrected) the Avanti Tweeter telling someone such a combination was not valid when it very obviously was.

CaptainHaddock · 9 Dec 2019

Funny old forum; here's a recent thread commending Euston gateline staff for their helpfulness!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/virgin-gateline-at-euston.195677/

ashkeba · 9 Dec 2019

WrongRoad said:
A few months working for First Group will soon change that thought lol

I hope the lol means that you know this is unlikely. First-staffed Paddington is the other place I have had valid offpeak tickets rejected. I also last had trouble at Liverpool Street back in First Great Eastern days.

ashkeba · 9 Dec 2019

bramling said:
Must admit I really don’t like the idea of body cams. Staff wouldn’t and don’t like it if a passenger thrusts a camera in their face at close range (and rightly so), so in my view the reverse is only fair. I regard body cams as provocative and excessively intrusive. If an environment is sufficiently insecure that such devices are required then there’s something wrong.

And it is strange how there is often no footage or the audio is missing/inconclusive when passengers complain. Maybe pasengers need to wear body cams to level the chances?

jonnymk · 9 Dec 2019

Less specific to Virgin /Avanti but neither of the two main train operators providing commuter services between Milton Keynes and Euston (avanti and LNR) have invested in a modern ticket system, despite broken promises, they both still issue annual seasons tickets on paper and the station staff kick off when the ticket doesn’t scan through without error or the writing becomes a bit unclear. Often asking you to rescan it unnecessarily and making sure you feel like a criminal for letting you through.

Have wasted so much time having my tickets reprinted at the station since they rarely last more than a week.

I have actually raised it with network rail since they do have some say in some stations (like Euston) but have confirmed to me it’s up to the train operators to invest in the ticketing.

CheshireCrusty · 9 Dec 2019

While I have never personally had a problem with the gateline staff at Euston (possibly because I always use Advance tickets and know to have got my ticket / appropriate ID / card out before approaching the platform). I have however witnessed a number of events where it appears there has been over-bearing and inappropriate behaviour towards passengers by the staff. I have even heard, albeit some years ago, a TM make a general PA announcement to passenger apologising on behalf of Virgin for the problems they had at the platform gate.
I do however agree that the fundamental problem is the procedures and layout of Euston; with late platform announcements, coupled with the announcements that train doors will be locked two minutes before departure, coupled with the volume of passengers all boarding at a single station to fill an 11 coach pendolino passing through a small single gateline pinch point. The need for 4 to 6 staff to check tickets for 600 passengers in often as little as 4 minutes creates such tensions for both staff and passengers that tempers inevitably get frayed on both sides, and also exploited by "chancers".
I think the solution would be to do a relatively minor redesign of the station. so that the gateline was moved up to the main concourse area with an airport style departure gate arrangement behind (the holding area could be shared between a group of platforms - as passengers for Liverpool are unlikely to get on a Birmingham or Manchester train). The gateline could then be opened to passengers as soon as the previous train to the same destination had departed and multiple gateline staff (with possibly automated barriers) given a more relaxed environment to deal with the majority of passengers and also cope with non-routine ticketing.
The problem - National Rail would lose the income from some of the franchises located at the top of the platform ramps and there would need to be a rearrangement to separate arriving from departing passengers (but this might require no more than a few removable barriers plus clear signage).

DarloRich · 9 Dec 2019

yorkie said:
Just a reminder the purpose of this thread was to highlight poor behaviour and levels of rudeness among paid staff who have been mistreating customers who held valid tickets.

There have been a huge number of incidents of mistreatment, including incorrect charging, of valid fare payers over the years.

Some apologists for staff who misbehave appear to be using the poor behaviour of a minority of other passengers as some sort of excuse for the mistreatment of legitimate customers by these staff.

I completely and utterly reject any such excuses.

It is a fact that some jobs are going to expose staff to poor behaviour by challenging individuals (I've done such jobs myself so I know what it's like) but anyone in any such job cannot use that as any sort of excuse for the mistreatment of legitimate users of the service they are supposed to be facilitating in providing.

It is also unacceptable for a small number of rail staff to falsely suggest that these legitimate fare payers have done something wrong, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. However the fact that two or three people on this thread have expressed such views does demonstrate, and provide an insight into, the scale of the deep rooted and severe cultural problems that do still exist in some locations within the rail industry.

it is interesting that you decide this thread is only to call out the poor behavior of staff and will not consider for one moment that passengers are less than angelic sometimes. it appears anyone attempting to point out both sides of the story is a "staff apologist".

I maintain, staff apologist or not: I have never had an issue with the dateline staff at Euston. That isnt to denigrate anyone else. It simply is a reflection of my experience as a regular user. Sorry it doesn't meet with the required tone.

L401CJF · 9 Dec 2019

Having a read through, I thought I would share my experiences travelling to Euston over the past few of years. I've only been a handful of times with Virgin. The first time was back in 2013, we arrived from Lime Street, saw a number of staff "checking tickets" at the end of the platform so had ours ready only to be grunted at and waved through without it being glanced at.

The return leg of this journey was the following evening however didn't have a ticket check before boarding. As it happens we were on the wrong train anyway - tickets were booked for the lets say 1823 Liverpool train (I cant remember the exact times), we boarded the 1821 and didn't think anything of it until I realised there was another Lime Street train 2 minutes apartwith different calling points and we were booked on the other! As it happens, nobody checked the ticket before boarding, on board, or at Lime Street.

I have been between Liverpool and Euston twice since then with Virgin trains , the first time had no ticket checks at any point on either the outbound or return journeys, and the 2nd time which was only in October of this year, again had no ticket checks outbound and only one check on the return, which was mid journey by a very polite chap.

Although not Virgin, going back many years I went to Euston changing at Crewe on London Midland with their £10 great escape ticket (which I really miss!). Again of the 2 trains out and 2 return, only had the tickets checked on the 2nd leg of my return journey - no platform checks!

I was quite shocked at how slack the gateline was at Euston, maybe I just travel at the right time of day or something but out of the 6 or so times ive been, Ive not had it checked at Euston itself on any occasion.

Why are Euston gateline staff so hostile?

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