Why did Eurostar move from Waterloo to St Pancras?

hwl · 9 Dec 2019

mwmbwls said:
Sadly the vision did not extend to linking up to Hastings - but the light is now dawning there too.

An expensive way of getting round the mid Kent are power supply issues!

RailUK Forums

jon0844 · 9 Dec 2019

For the poster that says people in the south west will prefer to fly from Heathrow than go up to St Pancras, I have to say that I'd sooner have the hassle of changing trains to get to St Pancras than have to get to an airport (and from an airport the other end) and go through increased security (by comparison at St Pancras it's a breeze) and sit around for ages.

I strongly suspect most people would opt for the train and as more people become aware of the service to Amsterdam, they'll opt for that too. When German destinations come, it might be a little closer to door-to-door times for a flight but the convenience and freedom on a train will likely still win out.

Indeed, it may be pricing that forces some people to fly not anything else.

D365 · 9 Dec 2019

mwmbwls said:
One added benefit of the move was the utilisation of spare capacity on HS1 to run the Javelin services to East Kent. Prior to that Ramsgate and Margate were remote. Sadly the vision did not extend to linking up to Hastings - but the light is now dawning there too. The dropping of this capacity enhancing penny also explains why the coexistence of NPR and HST2 will be a good idea.

hwl said:
An expensive way of getting round the mid Kent are power supply issues!

The last I heard, a bi-mode AT300 or variant was being proposed. If it fits (carriage length and gauge), perhaps a Class 804?

hwl · 9 Dec 2019

D365 said:
The last I heard, a bi-mode AT300 or variant was being proposed. If it fits (carriage length and gauge), perhaps a Class 804?

One of the key Hastings issues is the lack of ability to run everything at 12 car length through the greater Tunbridge Wells area due to lack of power supply for 3rd rail.

All a bit academic for the time being with SE refranchising delayed (again).

Dr_Paul · 9 Dec 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Snobbery about being South of the river. Taxi drivers would suck their teeth and overcharge unsuspecting French tourists as a result...

A French pal, living in South London, was always baffled about this 'never south of the river' business. I told her, a little naughtily, that this was why the Eurostar terminus was moved to St Pancras, that lots of people living north of the river wouldn't cross the Thames, and that since moving to St Pancras usage of Eurostar services had increased considerably. She wasn't entirely convinced.

Belperpete · 9 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
Alternatively they suggest the following two:
Waterloo to Vauxhall by train and then tube to London St Pancras International.

Of course, there is always the option of getting off at Vauxhall in the first place, without going into Waterloo at all. Changing at Clapham Junction if necessary.

infobleep · 9 Dec 2019

ashkeba said:
And Waterloo and Blackfriars are almost either end of Stamford Street. If people need to be told how to get between them, the UK is doomed.

Well if people don't need to be told that, why do they need to be given underground directions?

I have actually walked between the two. I wasn't however aware that it was faster than a train to London Bridge. I shall remember that for the future.

infobleep · 9 Dec 2019

Belperpete said:
Of course, there is always the option of getting off at Vauxhall in the first place, without going into Waterloo at all. Changing at Clapham Junction if necessary.

There is but getting to Clapham Junction in the morning for fast mainline users only works if you travel early enough or later. For example between 6:54 and 8:30 there are no fast trains from Guildford that stop at Clapham Junction. From Woking there isn't any fast or slow trains from 7:04 until 8:32.

The solution is to get the 6:53 from Guildford or 7:04 from Woking. If you don't wish to catch those then doubling back via Waterloo is the answer. Boarding a stopping train all the way can be slower than doubling back via Waterloo.

D365 · 9 Dec 2019

hwl said:
One of the key Hastings issues is the lack of ability to run everything at 12 car length through the greater Tunbridge Wells area due to lack of power supply for 3rd rail.

All a bit academic for the time being with SE refranchising delayed (again).

Which could, theoretically, be mitigated by running on diesel.

But as you say, any thought to future rolling stock is currently delayed.

Altfish · 9 Dec 2019

MotCO said:
Yes I know that it changed as a result of the completion of HS1, but surely HS1 could have arrived at Waterloo. There was a purpose built terminal at Waterloo, so why go to the expense of building another terminal? The land may not have been available to build a surface railway, but presumably it could still have gone through Essex, and then turned south underground towards Waterloo. Or was it because of better connections with the north, but the North of London concept never materialised?

So why did they change the terminals?

I think it is the wrong question.
It was always planned to run into St Pancras but HS1 was not complete, so as a temporary measure BR lines into Waterloo were used.

edwin_m · 9 Dec 2019

Altfish said:
I think it is the wrong question.
It was always planned to run into St Pancras but HS1 was not complete, so as a temporary measure BR lines into Waterloo were used.

The plan to build HS1 wasn't agreed until a few years after the Tunnel started operating. You may be thinking of how HS1 was built in two stages, so for a while Eurostars used the eastern part and then used the classic network between Fawkham Junction and Waterloo.

Sad Sprinter · 9 Dec 2019

Bungle965 said:
What we are now finding is that St Pancras is becoming too small to handle the ever increasing numbers of Eurostar passengers.
Sam

I think there was a 1988 plan to run Hs1 straight to Waterloo

I honestly think they should build BR’s Kings Cross Low Level and use St. Pcras as

Altfish said:
I think it is the wrong question.
It was always planned to run into St Pancras but HS1 was not complete, so as a temporary measure BR lines into Waterloo were used.

Bald Rick · 9 Dec 2019

edwin_m said:
The plan to build HS1 wasn't agreed until a few years after the Tunnel started operating. You may be thinking of how HS1 was built in two stages, so for a while Eurostars used the eastern part and then used the classic network between Fawkham Junction and Waterloo.

I remember studying the environmental Statement of CTRL in 1993, and it was definitely planned to go to St P then. Although it wasn’t confirmed until the Act received Royal Assent in 1996, the bill was laid before Parliament 10 days after ‘regular’ passenger services commenced through the tunnel in November 1994.

Taunton · 10 Dec 2019

I guess the walking time zealots here don't have to do the transfer with luggage and/or family in tow … and rain.

From the house at Canary Wharf to Paris nowadays I now find it quicker and easier to drive down the A13/Dartford Tunnel to Ebbsfleet, and park there, rather than the tube transfers to St P. Was not the case with Waterloo. Whether you change at London Bridge or Green Park trying to even board the ongoing tube in the morning at these places is a challenge.

RLBH · 10 Dec 2019

Sad Sprinter said:
I honestly think they should build BR’s Kings Cross Low Level and use St. Pcras as

King's Cross Low Level would have pointed the wrong way for HS1 as it exists now - it was intended to be served by a line coming in from the south, broadly along the Thameslink corridor. It would also have been a through station, facilitating Regional Eurostar before it became apparent that border controls would make that plan totally pointless.

Bald Rick · 10 Dec 2019

Taunton said:
I guess the walking time zealots here don't have to do the transfer with luggage and/or family in tow … and rain.

From the house at Canary Wharf to Paris nowadays I now find it quicker and easier to drive down the A13/Dartford Tunnel to Ebbsfleet, and park there, rather than the tube transfers to St P. Was not the case with Waterloo. Whether you change at London Bridge or Green Park trying to even board the ongoing tube in the morning at these places is a challenge.

I walk quicker in the rain, and so do the kids!

Bald Rick · 10 Dec 2019

Double post
(Why does it do that?)

edwin_m · 10 Dec 2019

Taunton said:
I guess the walking time zealots here don't have to do the transfer with luggage and/or family in tow … and rain.

From the house at Canary Wharf to Paris nowadays I now find it quicker and easier to drive down the A13/Dartford Tunnel to Ebbsfleet, and park there, rather than the tube transfers to St P. Was not the case with Waterloo. Whether you change at London Bridge or Green Park trying to even board the ongoing tube in the morning at these places is a challenge.

By contrast there was a huge swathe of the Midlands and North who had to make the trek across via Oxford Circus if they wanted to use Eurostar from Waterloo, which not surprisingly many of them didn't. There will always be winners and losers from a change such as this, and HS1 has created the option of Ebbsfleet and reduced the journey time. Crossrail also makes it easier to access St Pancras in future.

ashkeba · 10 Dec 2019

Taunton said:
I guess the walking time zealots here don't have to do the transfer with luggage and/or family in tow … and rain.

My train luggage has wheels and we have bought out family rain coats and I recommend both!

From the house at Canary Wharf to Paris nowadays I now find it quicker and easier to drive down the A13/Dartford Tunnel to Ebbsfleet, and park there, rather than the tube transfers to St P. Was not the case with Waterloo. Whether you change at London Bridge or Green Park trying to even board the ongoing tube in the morning at these places is a challenge.

I do not understand why one would change tube at London Bridge or Green Park between Canary Wharf and St Pancras, rather than changing onto Thameslink at LBR. Or if Ebbsfleet service is enough, taking DLR to Stratford then a Javelin. Driving may be easy but it seems a rather sad choice for a journey with congested roads and mass transport option.

ashkeba · 10 Dec 2019

edwin_m said:
By contrast there was a huge swathe of the Midlands and North who had to make the trek across via Oxford Circus if they wanted to use Eurostar from Waterloo, which not surprisingly many of them didn't. There will always be winners and losers from a change such as this, and HS1 has created the option of Ebbsfleet and reduced the journey time. Crossrail also makes it easier to access St Pancras in future.

How? Crossrail does not serve either St Pancras or Waterloo.

edwin_m · 10 Dec 2019

ashkeba said:
How? Crossrail does not serve either St Pancras or Waterloo.

Waterloo is irrelevant to the point I was making. Canary Wharf to St Pancras is either DLR to Bank with lots of steps or Jubilee to London Bridge with slightly fewer (lifts available at either but take much longer). Three stops on Crossrail, modern step-free interchange at Farringdon then one stop on the sub-surface ought to be much easier especially with luggage.

Sad Sprinter · 10 Dec 2019

RLBH said:
King's Cross Low Level would have pointed the wrong way for HS1 as it exists now - it was intended to be served by a line coming in from the south, broadly along the Thameslink corridor. It would also have been a through station, facilitating Regional Eurostar before it became apparent that border controls would make that plan totally pointless.

Oh I didn’t mean to post that.

Anyway, the plan to use St. Pancras as the terminus was only finalised in 1993/4. Until then Kings Cross Low Level would of still been the terminus of the existing route via Stratford with a tunnel veering off under the City. Rebuilding the station would allow the Eurostar to terminate in new platforms, conviently pointing northwards making HS2/HS1 services easier, and St. Pancras HS1 platforms could be used for an East Coast HS3 to Toton.

edwin_m · 10 Dec 2019

Sad Sprinter said:
Anyway, the plan to use St. Pancras as the terminus was only finalised in 1993/4. Until then Kings Cross Low Level would of still been the terminus of the existing route via Stratford with a tunnel veering off under the City. Rebuilding the station would allow the Eurostar to terminate in new platforms, conviently pointing northwards making HS2/HS1 services easier, and St. Pancras HS1 platforms could be used for an East Coast HS3 to Toton.

Do you have a source for this? There are enough tunnels under the City already to make it difficult to insert a new one, especially one that is large, whose speeds require very gentle horizontal and vertical curves, and which doesn't have to be there because it doesn't serve any station in the City itself. Look at the twists and turns of the DLR Bank tunnel to see how difficult that was. As far as I'm aware the switch from KX Low Level to St Pancras and from a route through SE London to something close to what was actually built were part and parcel of the same decision.

Having Eurostar in northward-facing platforms would either involve building that tunnel looping under the City to bring them into the St Pancras area from the south, or using most of the existing route but putting the platforms somewhere much further north and therefore less convenient both for Londoners and for those connecting via one of the three major termini near the current station. Far better to look for a suitable site if and when needed for HS3 (HS4? 5? 6?). My money would be on or under the Olympic Park with passenger connections to Stratford International and possibly even an infrequent service to St Pancras for Eurostar connections via what is now the depot access track.

Sad Sprinter · 10 Dec 2019

http://www.omegacentre.bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/UK_CTRL_PROFILE.pdf Bottom of Page 88 shows the diagram of the proposed route.

I may be mistaken about the tunnel running under the City, I'm sure I read it somewhere. But as the diagram shows, Arup was certainly looking at running HS1 into Kings Cross Low Level from Stratford as shown also on page 92.

swt_passenger · 10 Dec 2019

infobleep said:
Incidentally I just looked up on TfL journey planner for 7am tomorrow and they suggested Bakerloo line to Oxford Circus and then the Victoria line. It takes 12 minutes...

Well, that has definitely been the obvious and usually recommended route between Waterloo and Kings Cross since about 1968...

ashkeba · 10 Dec 2019

swt_passenger said:
Well, that has definitely been the obvious and usually recommended route between Waterloo and Kings Cross since about 1968...

12 minutes is complete fiction. It takes me more than 6 to walk from the Victoria line to the St Pancras exit if I follow the signs and I doubt someone who walks normally would be enough faster to total under 12 station door to station door.

swt_passenger · 10 Dec 2019

ashkeba said:
12 minutes is complete fiction. It takes me more than 6 to walk from the Victoria line to the St Pancras exit if I follow the signs and I doubt someone who walks normally would be enough faster to total under 12 station door to station door.

I wasn’t passing an opinion on the time, which if it came from LU’s journey planner is nothing to do with the walk within the mainline stations.

ashkeba · 10 Dec 2019

swt_passenger said:
I wasn’t passing an opinion on the time, which if it came from LU’s journey planner is nothing to do with the walk within the mainline stations.

The infamous long walk from the Victoria to the ticket hall signposted at St Pancras is entirely within the LU station.

swt_passenger · 10 Dec 2019

ashkeba said:
The infamous long walk from the Victoria to the ticket hall signposted at St Pancras is entirely within the LU station.

I don’t really care, the excess length of the tube passageways at KX/St P LU has been diiscussed numerous times by now.

I was responding to infobleep’s remark about it being apparently an unusual route.

Belperpete · 10 Dec 2019

ashkeba said:
12 minutes is complete fiction.

The LU journey planner seems to be platform to platform. It seems to take little account of how long it may take you to get to the platforms.

Why did Eurostar move from Waterloo to St Pancras?

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