No stipulation that it has to be new build, highly likely to be cascaded from somewhere
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New northern DMU’s due in 2022 as of yet unclassified.
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No stipulation that it has to be new build, highly likely to be cascaded from somewhere
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Bevan Price
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Will there be spare 158s when TfW gets its new stock?
LOL The Irony
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Yes, and spare 156's and some more 158's from EMR.
Bornin1980s
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Because the Pacers are condemned and the sprinters are over 30 years old. We need far more new dmus than we have on order. Niceties can wait.
That said, I would rather see more regional bi-modes, like the 755s. I don't like hydro-mechanical transmission.
There's always Crofton too.
Chris172
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If chiltern need DMUs then, isn’t there also class 222s/221s/180s floating about at the same sort of time? Most likely cross country would snap up the 221s and some 222s giving chiltern potentially some 222s and 180s?
GrimShady
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There shouldn't be two car anything being ordered these days especially without gangways.
krus_aragon
Established Member
18x2-car DMUs? The 175 fleet consists of 11 2-car and 16 3-car units, so while the dates line up with the TfW withdrawal schedule, I don't think that specification was written with the 175s in mind.
*Alternatively, there will be 24x2-car 158s released from TfW Cambrian services at around the same time...
*Alternatively, there will be 24x2-car 158s released from TfW Cambrian services at around the same time...
Mordac
Established Member
158s are not equivalent in performance to 170s though.
Any thoughts on the spare 185s going to Northern instead of new units. With refurbished and reformed 222 units then dropping onto the TPE/XC/Connect Nottingham - Liverpool route... the 185s clearly offer better seating density, but the 222s could be considerably cheaper on lease, plus also cleared for most if not all the route.
wilsontown
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Indeed, and they are not 100 mph units either. Max speed 90 mph.
LOL The Irony
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They accelerate faster however.
185s will probably be staying at TPE to allow the Nottingham - Liverpool route to transfer. TPE won't want yet another type of stock.
Realistically requirements will be rethought in the light of what is actually available.
170 might not just be about 100mph but not having end doors which might be a bigger factor with dwell times on key corridors.
With Northern cheap and available always helps with getting more or longer services! And longers train would certainly help with some dwell time issues.
170 might not just be about 100mph but not having end doors which might be a bigger factor with dwell times on key corridors.
With Northern cheap and available always helps with getting more or longer services! And longers train would certainly help with some dwell time issues.
Wharfe106
Member
All rather moot points given the current state of the Northern franchise and the changes which are reportedly likely to happen next month... and with the ever-shortening time before the government has said it wants all diesels phased out (2040), new build lease costs are rising with the risk factor and 'pre-owned' dmus will doubtless soon become sought after.
Given how fluid franchise agreements seem to have become, if Northern survive it might be in the best interest of them and the DfT to order some 4 car bi-mode units for Airport - Barrow, Airport - Liverpool via CLC and York - Blackpool North (Given that hopefully they would soon be able to do York-Leeds on electric as well as Preston-Blackpool) which would free up some 195s for other duties.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
They're pretty close on routes where the speed doesn't go above 90mph (so the 100mph capability of 170s isn't relevant).
krus_aragon
Established Member
18 units feels like it might be the right number for that route (though I'm sure others would be able to correct me if appropriate). Was the split pencilled in for December 2022 back when the Northern franchise was let?
Personally, I think it'd make more sense to keep the 185 fleet with one operator.
anamyd
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there are enough 175s to make 18 2-car 175s. just take 001-011 as is, and remove the centre cars from 7 of the /1s! the remaining vehicles could then be formed into 7 4-car 175s and 2 3-car 175s for other operators...?
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Bevan Price
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185s & 222s are both fuel-thirsty beasts, and both are affected by several lower speed limits than sprinters, due to their higher weights. In my opinion, the 158s remain as the best units currently available for the Liverpool - Sheffield section.
But. Question.
Are Classes 175 or 195 able to take advantage of the higher differential speed limits ? If so, they might also be better alternatives than 185 or 222s. Both classes are significantly lighter than 185s.
krus_aragon
Established Member
True, it could be done, but given that DfT like to micromanage things, it doesn't look like it was pre-ordained to be 175s: they'd have to chop and change the units in order to meet that (exact) requirement, and leave a microfleet left over.
And, come to think of it, when the Northern franchise was awarded, there was no way of knowing that the 175s would be off-lease in 2022. The Northern franchise agreement was vague about the nature of these units for a reason!
td97
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Been done to death. 95% not happening.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...wo-about-to-go-off-lease.194694/#post-4275825
Whilst I agree, it does least to the question what wires could get out up in the next 18 months or so as to be sure that there's more rolling stock available?
195s can run at SP/MU/DMU/HST differential speeds, 175s can take advantage of MU/DMU/HST but not SP differential speeds.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Yes I suppose you are right. The only line that is advanced enough and could be done in time would be Oxenholme to Windermere but I think that would only free up 4 DMUs- I think.
td97
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Lostock too.
GRALISTAIR
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How many DMUs would Lostock to Wigan sparking release?
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