Night Riviera Changes: Pick Up/Set Down only in Cornwall

Essexman · 10 Dec 2019

The new timetable shows the Night Riviera sleeper pick up / set down only at stations in Cornwall. Previously it's been used as a local service and I've seen reasonable numbers boarding westbound.
I wonder why this is and if it will be policed.

RailUK Forums

Clarence Yard · 10 Dec 2019

PRM & Safety requirements. The ORR have been involved and said it must cease.

JonathanH · 10 Dec 2019

Clarence Yard said:
PRM & Safety requirements. The ORR have been involved and said it must cease.

Does that mean a move to attended 'local door operation' for the Night Riviera other than at Paddington and Penzance?

PHILIPE · 10 Dec 2019

Essexman said:
The new timetable shows the Night Riviera sleeper pick up / set down only at stations in Cornwall. Previously it's been used as a local service and I've seen reasonable numbers boarding westbound.
I wonder why this is and if it will be policed.

There is a new 0600 Local from Plymouth to Penzance

embers25 · 23 Dec 2019

I just noticed that the Night Riviera is now set down only westbound beyond Newton Abbot and pick up only eastbound to Newton Abbot. This now means that Ride Cornwall and Cornish rail rovers can't be used on it in either direction.

Johnny Lewis · 23 Dec 2019

embers25 said:
I just noticed that the Night Riviera is now set down only westbound beyond Newton Abbot and pick up only eastbound to Newton Abbot. This now means that Ride Cornwall and Cornish rail rovers can't be used on it in either direction.

This is a (barmy) DfT directive. It apparently reduces the likelihood of customers needing to put their heads out of the window to open the door using the outside handle, as they will no longer be travelling from Plymouth or any station west thereof.
The fact that customers from London, Reading, Taunton, Exeter and Newton Abbot who are travelling to Plymouth or any station in Cornwall, and so will continue to need to stick their heads out of the window to open the door seems to be lost on the DafT......

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2019

Will the doors be operated by crew instead perhaps?

HamworthyGoods · 23 Dec 2019

Johnny Lewis said:
This is a (barmy) DfT directive. It apparently reduces the likelihood of customers needing to put their heads out of the window to open the door using the outside handle, as they will no longer be travelling from Plymouth or any station west thereof.
The fact that customers from London, Reading, Taunton, Exeter and Newton Abbot who are travelling to Plymouth or any station in Cornwall, and so will continue to need to stick their heads out of the window to open the door seems to be lost on the DafT......

ORR directive not the DfT I believe.

JonathanH · 23 Dec 2019

embers25 said:
I just noticed that the Night Riviera is now set down only westbound beyond Newton Abbot and pick up only eastbound to Newton Abbot. This now means that Ride Cornwall and Cornish rail rovers can't be used on it in either direction.

The fact that it isn't available for internal travel in Cornwall is of barely any consequence to anyone other than train enthusiasts as there are alternative services using conventional trains timed close to the sleeper through Cornwall.

I would assume that local door operation is in use on the sleeper controlled by crew and passengers will be asked to keep away from the door vestibules at all times when the trains are in motion.

If the traincrew have a manifest of all bookings on the train and the reservation compulsory restriction is applied, they can ensure that the right doors are opened.

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2019

Reservations are not compulsory on the Riviera.

embers25 · 23 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
The fact that it isn't available for internal travel in Cornwall is of barely any consequence to anyone other than train enthusiasts as there are alternative services using conventional trains timed close to the sleeper through Cornwall.

I would assume that local door operation is in use on the sleeper controlled by crew and passengers will be asked to keep away from the door vestibules at all times when the trains are in motion.

If the traincrew have a manifest of all bookings on the train and the reservation compulsory restriction is applied, they can ensure that the right doors are opened.

Not true as I used to use it to get from Exeter to Cornwall, splitting at Plymouth onto a ride cornwall which is no longer possible in either direction.

JonathanH · 23 Dec 2019

embers25 said:
Not true as I used to use it to get from Exeter to Cornwall, splitting at Plymouth onto a ride cornwall which is no longer possible in either direction.

I appreciate that technically it isn't valid but is that ticket combination realistically going to be refused provided you present both tickets? The restrictions are about passenger safety imposed by the ORR, not ticket anomalies.

Johnny Lewis · 23 Dec 2019

embers25 said:
Not true as I used to use it to get from Exeter to Cornwall, splitting at Plymouth onto a ride cornwall which is no longer possible in either direction.

You can still catch the Sleeper from Exeter St David's to Plymouth and change there for an alternative GW (Mon-Fri) or XC (Sat) service onto Penzance. Assuming Ride Cornwall tickets are even valid before 9 or 9.30am anyway?
Similarly, on Monday to Friday nights, the 22.10 XC service from Penzance arrives into Plymouth in time to connect with the Night Riviera there.

Goldfish62 · 23 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
The fact that it isn't available for internal travel in Cornwall is of barely any consequence to anyone other than train enthusiasts as there are alternative services using conventional trains timed close to the sleeper through Cornwall.

Tell that to somebody who uses it for going to /from an evening job or bus connection (buses run very late in the evenings in Cornwall). There's now a two hour gap eastbound which wasn't there before.

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2019

Goldfish62 said:
Tell that to somebody who uses it for going to /from an evening job or bus connection (buses run very late in the evenings in Cornwall). There's now a two hour gap eastbound which wasn't there before.

Given the low usage, could they not just operate "local door" with the guard managing operation and other doors remaining locked?

Glenn1969 · 23 Dec 2019

Johnny Lewis said:
You can still catch the Sleeper from Exeter St David's to Plymouth and change there for an alternative GW (Mon-Fri) or XC (Sat) service onto Penzance. Assuming Ride Cornwall tickets are even valid before 9 or 9.30am anyway?
Similarly, on Monday to Friday nights, the 22.10 XC service from Penzance arrives into Plymouth in time to connect with the Night Riviera there.

RTT shows this train as arriving in Plymouth 7 minutes after the Sleeper has left

JonathanH · 23 Dec 2019

Glenn1969 said:
RTT shows this train as arriving in Plymouth 7 minutes after the Sleeper has left

It does today, but in the new year once the restrictions are applied, the Night Riviera will leave Plymouth later to maintain the connection out of the Cross Country train.

Glenn1969 · 23 Dec 2019

The restrictions are already showing on RTT and I inputted several dates including 6th Jan. The change of time at Plymouth seems to start Jan 13th. Tonight the Sleeper is showing as terminating at Reading at 0350- how long would passengers have to wait for a connection to Paddington ?

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2019

Glenn1969 said:
The restrictions are already showing on RTT and I inputted several dates including 6th Jan. Tonight the Sleeper is showing as terminating at Reading at 0350- how long would passengers have to wait for a connection to Paddington ?

Paddington appears to be closed tomorrow, presumably for engineering works.

Johnny Lewis · 23 Dec 2019

Glenn1969 said:
The restrictions are already showing on RTT and I inputted several dates including 6th Jan. The change of time at Plymouth seems to start Jan 13th. Tonight the Sleeper is showing as terminating at Reading at 0350- how long would passengers have to wait for a connection to Paddington ?

Paddington is closed, so they would have to wait until the early morning of Saturday 28 December! Or take a train to Slough, a replacement bus from there to Hillingdon, then the Tube into central London. That's essentially why the Sleeper is terminating at Reading tonight.

JonathanH · 23 Dec 2019

Is it feasible to lock all the droplights on this train in the upright position other than the leading one on the brake coach, make this part of the train prohibited to passengers and then for the Train Manager to open external doors as necessary from the outside where there is a passenger need for access based on their knowledge of who needs to get off?

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
Is it feasible to lock all the droplights on this train in the upright position other than the leading one on the brake coach, make this part of the train prohibited to passengers and then for the Train Manager to open external doors as necessary from the outside where there is a passenger need for access based on their knowledge of who needs to get off?

I doubt you could lock droplights as it would render the emergency release inoperable. Could vertical bars be fitted, though? They were all over the SE in the latter slamdoor days.

Perhaps you could use "local door" and tape off the access to other doors, though.

Wilts Wanderer · 24 Dec 2019

This (somewhat knee-jerk IMO) reaction from ORR is a direct result of the Oldfield Park fatality last year. The problem with the Riviera is the down train SX mornings tends to convey school children who are judged to be more likely to prat around in vestibules and stick their heads out of a window on the move I think? The late night Up departure has also had alcohol-related issues in the past. Both these demographics are judged to be most at risk on drop window stock.

It's also rendered the recent conversion of the previously extremely comfortable seating coaches from 2+1 to much a less appealing airline -style 2+2 layout mostly pointless. I guess GWR now have the option of adding a further sleeper coach vice a seating vehicle if the local usage is now much lower.

Steve Harris · 25 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I doubt you could lock droplights as it would render the emergency release inoperable. Could vertical bars be fitted, though? They were all over the SE in the latter slamdoor days.

Perhaps you could use "local door" and tape off the access to other doors, though.

I certainly remember those bars on slam door stock. I can also remember that on those units the droplight wouldn't open any lower than the lowest bar. Perhaps there was some kind of stop or packer in the door?

Therefore, I have an idea. Why dont they do exactly the same sort of thing with the mkIII's and have station staff open the doors at stations. Or is that far to simple/ cost to much money??

BucksBones · 25 Dec 2019

I guess there would have been safety reasons not to fit interior door handles when new (to avoid accidental door opening at speed) but now there's CDL. Wouldn't be difficult to fit them, surely?

Bletchleyite · 25 Dec 2019

Steve Harris said:
Therefore, I have an idea. Why dont they do exactly the same sort of thing with the mkIII's and have station staff open the doors at stations. Or is that far to simple/ cost to much money??

It has to be possible to open the doors from the inside in emergency, so anything that prevents people doing so is a non-starter. However, vertical bars have been used in the past which prevent you putting your head out but still allow an arm to be put out and reach the handle. This would seem to make sense to me. For anyone finding it awkward, the staff could announce a door they will stand at.

Bletchleyite · 25 Dec 2019

Wilts Wanderer said:
It's also rendered the recent conversion of the previously extremely comfortable seating coaches from 2+1 to much a less appealing airline -style 2+2 layout mostly pointless. I guess GWR now have the option of adding a further sleeper coach vice a seating vehicle if the local usage is now much lower.

As it's slackly timed and not maxed out on platform length (as it's far shorter than an HST) they could do that without removing a seating coach if they wanted.

Steve Harris · 26 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It has to be possible to open the doors from the inside in emergency, so anything that prevents people doing so is a non-starter.

I totally understand that. But, what I failed to mention in my post you are answering to is that the slam door stock I was talking about had interior door handles. Therefore,

BucksBones said:
I guess there would have been safety reasons not to fit interior door handles when new (to avoid accidental door opening at speed) but now there's CDL. Wouldn't be difficult to fit them, surely?

JonathanH · 26 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
As it's slackly timed and not maxed out on platform length (as it's far shorter than an HST) they could do that without removing a seating coach if they wanted.

8 Mark 3 coaches on the Night Riviera when I last travelled on it in September - BSO-TSO-RFM-5xSLEP. That is the same length as HSTs up to May 2019 (and I think seated demand from Paddington tends to justify both seated coaches as most people don't really want to sit next to someone they don't know overnight). There are plenty of platforms shorter than this in Cornwall. A class 57 is slightly longer than a HST power car as well.

Bletchleyite · 26 Dec 2019

Steve Harris said:
I totally understand that. But, what I failed to mention in my post you are answering to is that the slam door stock I was talking about had interior door handles. Therefore,

I was specifically answering with regard to the suggestion that staff should operate the doors at stations, not the part that may have referred to the provision of inside handles. I suspect that designing such handles specifically for about 10 coaches for this service (as they will be the only non-charter ones left soon, and charters mostly use Mk1s and Mk2s rather than Mk3s so the same design may not work) is unduly expensive - it might actually be cheaper to fit power doors to them using the type fitted to the short HSTs.

Night Riviera Changes: Pick Up/Set Down only in Cornwall

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