Poll: Potential General Election: who are you voting for?

GrimShady · 5 Dec 2019

edwin_m said:
Trump is now accused, on very strong evidence, of withholding military aid agreed by Congress for Ukraine, where war with Russia could break out any time. His motive is simply to do down a political opponent.

I can't help thinking that your judgment is questionable if you are so relaxed about Trump and Johnson and so het up about Swinson.

Accused but not proven....yet.

Easy. With the first two you know what your getting, option number three..well I hope we never find out. At least Trump and Johnson have tried to keep their, what are we calling it now, promises?

There's nothing wrong with my judgement thanks. I just don't subscribe to the left wing agenda that is to rubbish and demonise everything they don't agree with. Speaking of judgement I wonder how many here voted for Blair time after time there by contributing to the deaths of hundreds and thousands of people in the middle east? Oh and our own servicemen?

EDIT: I would question the judgement of anyone considering voting Lib Dem after the 2010 fiasco.

Give it ten years and they'll be another leader they don't like to tear hair out over. Same old same old and so the wheel goes round.

RailUK Forums

jellybaby · 6 Dec 2019

GrimShady said:
Johnson have tried to keep their, what are we calling it now, promises?

Has Johnson stopped the Heathrow 3rd runway yet?

edwin_m · 6 Dec 2019

GrimShady said:
At least Trump and Johnson have tried to keep their, what are we calling it now, promises?

No point in continuing this conversation.

DynamicSpirit · 6 Dec 2019

GrimShady said:
You're not being slick, you're defending a proven liar, the truth is right in front of you.

No, I'm calling you out on your repeatedly making unsubstantiated allegations.

You cannot be a liar unless you tell lies. That's the definition of a liar! You have not been able when challenged to find a single instance of a lie that Jo Swinson has told, yet you continue to refer to her as a liar. Sorry, but if she has not told any lies then she is not a liar, and it is wrong of you to say that she is.

How would you like it if someone kept calling you a liar, despite that person not being able to find a single lie that you had told?

DynamicSpirit · 6 Dec 2019

GrimShady said:
Speaking of judgement I wonder how many here voted for Blair time after time there by contributing to the deaths of hundreds and thousands of people in the middle east? Oh and our own servicemen?

A quick check at the Commons voting record shows that a certain Boris Johnson was one of those consistently voting for the Iraq war. Yet I've not noticed you criticising him, or criticising anyone for voting for him.

GrimShady · 6 Dec 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
No, I'm calling you out on your repeatedly making unsubstantiated allegations.

You cannot be a liar unless you tell lies. That's the definition of a liar! You have not been able when challenged to find a single instance of a lie that Jo Swinson has told, yet you continue to refer to her as a liar. Sorry, but if she has not told any lies then she is not a liar, and it is wrong of you to say that she is.

How would you like it if someone kept calling you a liar, despite that person not being able to find a single lie that you had told?

I'm sorry DynamicSpirit she lied to her voters. It's tragic enough she did that without introducing more spin. She's a bare faced liar the evidence has been posted. Didn't she also cause Corbyn of being a secret Brexiteer? I could post more on the underhanded tactics of the Lib Dems however I won't waste your time as you I suspect you know yourself.

The fact of that matter is, one can trust a Tory to always be a Tory, Labour to do the opposite from the Tory and as for a Lib Dem....well..who knows what they'll do. Lesson from history.

krus_aragon · 6 Dec 2019

GrimShady said:
I'm sorry DynamicSpirit she lied to her voters. It's tragic enough she did that without introducing more spin.

I would consider it a lie if she made that pledge knowing at the time that she wouldn't be able to fulfil it. Otherwise, I'd consider it to be a broken promise. (There's a Mary Poppins quote about promises that feels very appropriate in the context of politics.)

I don't know if she and her fellow Liberals knew at the time they wouldn't stick to the promise. That's a key factor for me to decide if they were lying. I'm not sure if anyone can evidence that, though.

To throw an analogy into the mix, I could make a pledge to arrive at work at 09:00 on Monday. If I get taken ill over the weekend, or my car breaks down in the morning, I wasn't lying when I made that promise, but I made a promise that I failed to keep. If, on the other hand, I made that pledge knowing I had a doctor's appointment for 9am the same morning, that would be a lie in my book.

----

Tangentially, going into that coalition, the Conservatives also failed to carry out many of the promises made in their manifesto. There weren't as many of them, which isn't surprising given they were the majority party of the coalition. The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-implemented]went through a checklist of them before the 2015 election. I don't think any of them were issues that Conservative candidates had been out signing big sheets of paper about, though.

The Liberals definitely broke an election pledge that they had been making a big fuss about, in order to enter into a coalition. A lot of people are going to be very slow to forgive them about that. I'm not sure that "lying" is the correct term to use, though.

GrimShady · 6 Dec 2019

krus_aragon said:
I would consider it a lie if she made that pledge knowing at the time that she wouldn't be able to fulfil it. Otherwise, I'd consider it to be a broken promise. (There's a Mary Poppins quote about promises that feels very appropriate in the context of politics.)

I don't know if she and her fellow Liberals knew at the time they wouldn't stick to the promise. That's a key factor for me to decide if they were lying. I'm not sure if anyone can evidence that, though.

To throw an analogy into the mix, I could make a pledge to arrive at work at 09:00 on Monday. If I get taken ill over the weekend, or my car breaks down in the morning, I wasn't lying when I made that promise, but I made a promise that I failed to keep. If, on the other hand, I made that pledge knowing I had a doctor's appointment for 9am the same morning, that would be a lie in my book.

----

Tangentially, going into that coalition, the Conservatives also failed to carry out many of the promises made in their manifesto. There weren't as many of them, which isn't surprising given they were the majority party of the coalition. The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-implemented]went through a checklist of them before the 2015 election. I don't think any of them were issues that Conservative candidates had been out signing big sheets of paper about, though.

The Liberals definitely broke an election pledge that they had been making a big fuss about, in order to enter into a coalition. A lot of people are going to be very slow to forgive them about that. I'm not sure that "lying" is the correct term to use, though.

Good analogy but your car breaking down is an accident which you probably had little control over. What they did was a conscious and done with full knowledge of what they were doing.

None of the parties have carried out their promises in entirety, their all as bad as each other but you can be certain which way the Tory party or the Labour party will go. As you correctly said the Lib Dems created the situation themselves.

Anyway this is going round in circles. I've made my statement and posted the evidence when challenged. Next week the country will have its say.

krus_aragon · 6 Dec 2019

GrimShady said:
Good analogy but your car breaking down is an accident which you probably had little control over. What they did was a conscious and done with full knowledge of what they were doing.

Granted. Though I still feel there's a distinction between a conscious breaking of a promise after it's made, and making a promise that you know at the time that you won't keep.

As you say, let's see what comes out of the wash in a week's time...

DynamicSpirit · 7 Dec 2019

krus_aragon said:
I don't know if she and her fellow Liberals knew at the time they wouldn't stick to the promise. That's a key factor for me to decide if they were lying. I'm not sure if anyone can evidence that, though.

I would agree with that. It's only a lie if they were intending at the time they made the pledge not to honour it. If they subsequently decided after the event not to honour the pledge, then it's a change-of-mind and potentially a broken promise, but not a lie. And in that latter event, it comes down to a rather subjective judgement as to whether circumstances had changed sufficiently to make it reasonable for them to change their minds and break the pledge.

As very strong evidence that the intentions of most LibDem MPs were honourable at the time of signing the pledge, I'd observe that, when the tuition fee vote came up, nearly half of the LibDem MPs broke with the party line and voted against the rise. In that light, I think we can be extremely confident that what happened was a change of mind and not a deliberate lie - at least on the part of the majority of LibDem MPs. Besides, as far as I can tell from the outside, not being a member, the LibDems seem to be a pretty open party, that tends to leave a lot more leeway for individual conscience and people to go against the party line then tends to be the case for Labour or the Conservatives. If that's the case, then it would seem pretty inconceivable that a big plot to lie about the flagship pledge could happen without someone taking objection and leaking it out to the press.

In fact I'd go further - it seems to me that the idea the the LibDems were en masse knowingly lying about their flagship pledge in 2010 in the way that @GrimShady seems to be saying is frankly erring towards the 'Elvis is alive' level of daft conspiracy theory. It's just an absurd proposition. The only reason I'm taking the trouble to even talk about it is in the hope that the people (or maybe, person) who is pushing this idea is at least a bit open to reason.

DynamicSpirit · 7 Dec 2019

GrimShady said:
I'm sorry DynamicSpirit she lied to her voters. It's tragic enough she did that without introducing more spin. She's a bare faced liar the evidence has been posted. Didn't she also cause Corbyn of being a secret Brexiteer? I could post more on the underhanded tactics of the Lib Dems however I won't waste your time as you I suspect you know yourself.

The fact of that matter is, one can trust a Tory to always be a Tory, Labour to do the opposite from the Tory and as for a Lib Dem....well..who knows what they'll do. Lesson from history.

No, as far as I can see, she did not lie.

Look at it this way... Lots of people of all political persuasions read these threads, and will have seen this discussion. You have yourself been unable to come up with any example of Jo Swinson lying. Surely, if Jo Swinson really did have a habit of repeatedly lying, by now someone else would have waded in and presented a couple of examples of her lying? But no-one has. Instead there has been a steady stream of people quite correctly pointing out to you that the examples you have cited are not actually lies (even though they may reflect badly on the LibDems in other ways).

And it doesn't matter how often you repeat your unsubstantiated allegation that Jo Swinson is a liar, it remains an unsubstantiated (and therefore, probably false) allegation unless you can substantiate it. And it seems to me that the more often you repeat the allegation without providing any evidence for it, the sillier you're making yourself look.

As for, "Didn't she also cause Corbyn of being a secret Brexiteer? " - lots of people have suggested that. I have no idea whether Jo Swinson has said it. I personally don't think Corbyn is a secret Brexiteer, but his behaviour has certainly been ambiguous enough to make many people wonder what he privately really believes about Europe. Just as very many people - including myself - strongly suspect that Boris Johnson doesn't really believe in Brexit but adopted it in order to curry favour with Tory party members and has now boxed himself into being forced to evangelise for and pursue Brexit in order to save his political career. So I'd tend put that kind of talk in the realm of speculation rather than outright lying. But if Jo Swinson had said something like that, I'd probably want to see her exact words before specifically commenting on it.

edwin_m · 7 Dec 2019

By contrast there are entire websites devoted to the lies of Boris Johnson: https://boris-johnson-lies.com/about

This website is the work of a collaborative venture by Richard Assheton, Adam Bychawski, Tom Chivers, Peter Oborne, Charlie Peters, Michael Prodger, Dai Richards and William Wickstead.

Note that Peter Oborne has a record as a very right-wing commentator, so it's unlikely he would be motivated by political opposition.

The Ham · 8 Dec 2019

edwin_m said:
By contrast there are entire websites devoted to the lies of Boris Johnson: https://boris-johnson-lies.com/about

Note that Peter Oborne has a record as a very right-wing commentator, so it's unlikely he would be motivated by political opposition.

According to Stanley Johnson we're too uneducated to understand the literary reference of the cartoon on that website where Boris' nose is longer than it should be.

Now whilst few will get it from their knowledge of the literature produced by Carlo Collodi, it's a story which is fairly well ingrained into the culture with other children book version being created. There's significant cultural references to it and there's a Disney film. All of which means that a significant number of people are aware of Pinocchio.

Whilst the spelling of that is probably something that some (including myself, I had to Google it) will struggle with, that's not overly surprising as it's not a word which many of us will have a need to spell on a day by day basis.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if interviewers were to ask Boris if he knows how to spell it.

dgl · 9 Dec 2019

I see the conservative campaign as this, promise the earth, promise to make massive investment into everything costing billions, knowing full well that when they pull us out of the EU the economy will tank and an emergency budget will have to go into effect not only cancelling out all their "promises" but cutting even further.
That's probably one of the reasons BoJo wants us out of the EU and the resultant chaos will be a good excuse as to why they are now not going to spend all this money they have promised.
Problem is voters seem to be falling for this tactic, yes Corbyn isn't perfect but so long as the people around him keep him in check he is by far the best of a bad bunch.

The Ham · 9 Dec 2019

dgl said:
I see the conservative campaign as this, promise the earth, promise to make massive investment into everything costing billions, knowing full well that when they pull us out of the EU the economy will tank and an emergency budget will have to go into effect not only cancelling out all their "promises" but cutting even further.
That's probably one of the reasons BoJo wants us out of the EU and the resultant chaos will be a good excuse as to why they are now not going to spend all this money they have promised.
Problem is voters seem to be falling for this tactic, yes Corbyn isn't perfect but so long as the people around him keep him in check he is by far the best of a bad bunch.

All the while hoping that one of them doesn't do something which upsets the general population.

najaB · 9 Dec 2019

I don't get how anyone could vote to put BoJo in power given the shocking indifference he displayed towards a young boy with suspected pneumonia who was forced to sleep on the floor due to a lack of hospital beds...

General election 2019: Boris Johnson criticised over reaction to sick boy image

Boris Johnson has been criticised after initially refusing to look at a picture of a sick four-year-old boy who had to sleep on the floor of a Leeds hospital.
The picture in the Daily Mirror of Jack, who had suspected pneumonia, spurred complaints about NHS cuts.
An ITV reporter tried to show Mr Johnson the picture on his phone, but he refused to look, before taking the device and putting it in his pocket.
He later looked and returned the phone.

AlterEgo · 9 Dec 2019

najaB said:
I don't get how anyone could vote to put BoJo in power given the shocking indifference he displayed towards a young boy with suspected pneumonia who was forced to sleep on the floor due to a lack of hospital beds...

General election 2019: Boris Johnson criticised over reaction to sick boy image

We had to wait a while for it but here’s Johnson’s big gaffe. He’s like clockwork, you can rely on him to slip up. Let’s see how the polls are affected.

Tetchytyke · 9 Dec 2019

najaB said:
I don't get how anyone could vote to put BoJo in power given the shocking indifference he displayed towards a young boy with suspected pneumonia who was forced to sleep on the floor due to a lack of hospital beds

Jo Swinson is a bigger liar :lol:

najaB · 9 Dec 2019

Tetchytyke said:
Jo Swinson is a bigger liar

That can be said, but at least she appears to be capable of expressing human emotion and some measure of compassion.

The Ham · 9 Dec 2019

najaB said:
That can be said, but at least she appears to be capable of expressing human emotion and some measure of compassion.

She also, unless I've missed it, hasn't pocketed someone's phone.

The Ham · 9 Dec 2019

The Ham said:
She also, unless I've missed it, hasn't pocketed someone's phone.

For balance; I'm not aware of any of the other political party leaders doing likewise.

Esker-pades · 9 Dec 2019

The Ham said:
For balance; I'm not aware of any of the other political party leaders doing likewise.

Boris Johnson....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50717606

BBC said:
Boris Johnson has been criticised after initially refusing to look at a picture of a sick four-year-old boy who had to sleep on the floor of a Leeds hospital.

The picture in the Daily Mirror of Jack, who had suspected pneumonia, spurred complaints about NHS cuts.

An ITV reporter tried to show Mr Johnson the picture on his phone, but he refused to look, before taking the device and putting it in his pocket.

He later looked and returned the phone.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn tweeted: "He just doesn't care", while Independent Group for Change leader Anna Soubry called his actions "appalling".

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...loor-jack-williment-phone-photo-a9239041.html
(Timestamp - 40 seconds)

Independent said:
Boris Johnson has refused to look at a picture of a four-year-old boy forced to lie on the floor in an NHS hospital, eventually taking the phone of a reporter attempting to show it to him and putting it in his pocket.

The prime minister was confronted with the image of Jack Williment-Barr laid on a pile of coats while awaiting treatment for suspected pneumonia at Leeds General Infirmary.

Sarah Williment covered her son, with coats to keep him warm as he waited for a bed on Tuesday, eventually waiting for five hours on a ward trolley before a bed was found at 3am.

Jeremy Corbyn said the clip showed Mr Johnson “just doesn’t care” about the plight of the child languishing in a hospital corridor, while Labour’s Angela Rayner branded him “an utter disgrace”.

Mr Johnson was asked about the image by ITV reporter Joe Pike on the campaign trail, who said: “The PM grabbed my phone and put it in his pocket.”

https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1204018593656180736
(Original footage)

Darandio · 10 Dec 2019

najaB said:
I don't get how anyone could vote to put BoJo in power given the shocking indifference he displayed towards a young boy with suspected pneumonia who was forced to sleep on the floor due to a lack of hospital beds...

Followed by sending out what was quite literally an army of fake tweeters claiming to be paediatric nurses to dismiss the boy as fake news. This campaign is disgusting.

AlterEgo · 10 Dec 2019

Darandio said:
Followed by sending out what was quite literally an army of fake tweeters claiming to be paediatric nurses to dismiss the boy as fake news. This campaign is disgusting.

Just out of interest, do we have confirmation that a nurse put the boy on the floor?

jellybaby · 10 Dec 2019

AlterEgo said:
Just out of interest, do we have confirmation that a nurse put the boy on the floor?

The original story which includes quotes from the mum is at https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...-forced-sleep-floor-lgi-due-lack-beds-1334909

Sarah Williment's son, Jack, was rushed to the Leeds hospital by ambulance with suspected pneumonia on December 3.
...
Jack was originally placed on a bed in the Paediatric Emergency Department.

However - due to an emergency arrival at the hospital - Jack was told that the bed was needed for the other patient and he was moved into a clinical room, his mum said.

Sarah added: "A doctor rushed in and said he needed the bed.

"We were taken out of that room and placed in another room which had no bed to lie in.

"My son was forced to sleep on the floor.

"He just couldn't settle or get comfy, he said he wanted to lay down.

"He was not able to settle, he kept sitting on the floor.

"Jack's coat was on the floor and he ended up laying on top of it."

So no, Jack was not put on the floor by a nurse. I don't think that makes it okay.

I had to go to A&E a fortnight ago. Waiting times were up to 10 hours. There were several people in the waiting room that looked like they should be lying down to me for their comfort, not sitting on hard plastic chairs. The system is massively underresourced and events like this are probably happening all over the place without the same media coverage.

Arglwydd Golau · 10 Dec 2019

AlterEgo said:
Just out of interest, do we have confirmation that a nurse put the boy on the floor?

Also just out of interest, why do you want to know this?

bspahh · 10 Dec 2019

jellybaby said:
The original story which includes quotes from the mum is at https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...-forced-sleep-floor-lgi-due-lack-beds-1334909

https://twitter.com/JayMitchinson/status/1204344653174181888 is a tweet from the editor of the Yorkshire Post with more detail on how they came across the story, and fact checked it before publishing it.

SS4 · 10 Dec 2019

I'll be voting Labour, it's really a no-brainer. If Johnson and Farage are so scared they need to warn against voting him in PERSONALLY (and I do not live in Corbyn's constituency) then he must be up to some good. We've been on neoliberal economic policies since Thatcher and the only ones who have benefited are the richest who now smear Corbyn through their outlets.

My heart says Lib Dem but I was burned in 2011 after the failed to improve our democracy.

Puffing Devil · 10 Dec 2019

SS4 said:
I'll be voting Labour, it's really a no-brainer. If Johnson and Farage are so scared they need to warn against voting him in PERSONALLY (and I do not live in Corbyn's constituency) then he must be up to some good. We've been on neoliberal economic policies since Thatcher and the only ones who have benefited are the richest who now smear Corbyn through their outlets.

My heart says Lib Dem but I was burned in 2011 after the failed to improve our democracy.

Think about what's most important to you - keeping out Boris, or a Lib/Lab conflict? If it's out with Boris then consider voting for the strongest opposition in your constituency.

Puffing Devil · 10 Dec 2019

bspahh said:
https://twitter.com/JayMitchinson/status/1204344653174181888 is a tweet from the editor of the Yorkshire Post with more detail on how they came across the story, and fact checked it before publishing it.

For those who Facebook have a little search for the opening words of this

"Very interesting. A good friend of mine is a senior nursing sister at Leeds Hospital - the boy shown on the floor by the media was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and uploaded it to media outlets before he climbed back onto his trolley. He was on a hospital trolley in the paediatric A&E having been seen within 20 minutes. I am a nurse myself and am so pissed off with fake news, yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care. Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead of constantly slagging them off. another Momentum
Propaganda story. Disgraceful."

There has been a co-ordinated posting of accounts which appear to have been cultivated for some time, ready for such a push. Very scary.

Poll: Potential General Election: who are you voting for?

Potential October GE: Who will you vote for?

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