Why no new stock for the Southern TPE route?

ohgoditsjames · 10 Dec 2019

Not sure if this is really worth a new thread or not however it’s cropped up a few times recently on other threads.

Why is it that every TPE route are seeing new stock with the 397’s, 802’s and the 68’s but down here we’re stuck with the 185’s and aren’t receiving any new stock?. The 185’s are actually quite nice however we’ve been promised 6 car 185’s for a while now and still they haven’t arrived.

The Hope Valley line has suffered with chronic overcrowding for years and is one of the most overcrowded TPE routes so seems a little “unfair” that we aren’t getting anything new and fancy!

What has this decision come down to?

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Bantamzen · 10 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Not sure if this is really worth a new thread or not however it’s cropped up a few times recently on other threads.

Why is it that every TPE route are seeing new stock with the 397’s, 802’s and the 68’s but down here we’re stuck with the 185’s and aren’t receiving any new stock?. The 185’s are actually quite nice however we’ve been promised 6 car 185’s for a while now and still they haven’t arrived.

What has this decision come down to?

Once the Nova stock starts to roll out in earnest on the North TP / Scotland routes, and enough crews are trained on them I image that more 185s will be freed up for the South TP route. You've probably noticed but there have been a lot of issues on the North TP recently, so getting 6 car workings for the southern route won't have been a priority for TPE. Once things settle in, hopefully you'll start to reap the benefits.

Bletchleyite · 10 Dec 2019

I'm not sure I'd be too bothered about having 185s provided they were in 6-car formations. They're nice units, and the quality of the refurb TPE has done to them is second to none.

hwl · 10 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Not sure if this is really worth a new thread or not however it’s cropped up a few times recently on other threads.

Why is it that every TPE route are seeing new stock with the 397’s, 802’s and the 68’s but down here we’re stuck with the 185’s and aren’t receiving any new stock?. The 185’s are actually quite nice however we’ve been promised 6 car 185’s for a while now and still they haven’t arrived.

The Hope Valley line has suffered with chronic overcrowding for years and is one of the most overcrowded TPE routes so seems a little “unfair” that we aren’t getting anything new and fancy!

What has this decision come down to?

Virtually no electric running opportunity (see 802/397s routes) or potential electrification of part of the route so a short term solution in cl. 68 + Mk5 (in hind sight more 802s as the mk5s were meant to be quick delivery).
Taking over Liverpool - Nottingham from EMR would see the lots of 185s focused on the Hope Valley.

DarloRich · 10 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I'm not sure I'd be too bothered about having 185s provided they were in 6-car formations. They're nice units, and the quality of the refurb TPE has done to them is second to none.

seconded - superb units.

Mollman · 10 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Not sure if this is really worth a new thread or not however it’s cropped up a few times recently on other threads.

Why is it that every TPE route are seeing new stock with the 397’s, 802’s and the 68’s but down here we’re stuck with the 185’s and aren’t receiving any new stock?. The 185’s are actually quite nice however we’ve been promised 6 car 185’s for a while now and still they haven’t arrived.

The Hope Valley line has suffered with chronic overcrowding for years and is one of the most overcrowded TPE routes so seems a little “unfair” that we aren’t getting anything new and fancy!

What has this decision come down to?

Hull services are staying as 185s too (the promise of 6-car seams to have disappeared too). Ironically (as reported elsewhere) if TPE takes over the Liverpool - Nottingham service then the South TP will technically receive new stock in he form of 68s & Mk5s to work this service. More 185s would then appear on North TP services again.

ohgoditsjames · 10 Dec 2019

Mollman said:
Hull services are staying as 185s too (the promise of 6-car seams to have disappeared too). Ironically (as reported elsewhere) if TPE takes over the Liverpool - Nottingham service then the South TP will technically receive new stock in he form of 68s & Mk5s to work this service. More 185s would then appear on North TP services again.

Where have you heard that?

bramling · 10 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Not sure if this is really worth a new thread or not however it’s cropped up a few times recently on other threads.

Why is it that every TPE route are seeing new stock with the 397’s, 802’s and the 68’s but down here we’re stuck with the 185’s and aren’t receiving any new stock?. The 185’s are actually quite nice however we’ve been promised 6 car 185’s for a while now and still they haven’t arrived.

The Hope Valley line has suffered with chronic overcrowding for years and is one of the most overcrowded TPE routes so seems a little “unfair” that we aren’t getting anything new and fancy!

What has this decision come down to?

Why does there need to be a perception of “fairness”? As you say the 185s are fit for purpose - indeed still pretty modern. Six car formations represents a doubling of capacity for the majority of services which previously ran as three cars, so in length terms South TPE does well, like you say as long as this materialises in reality.

It’s a bit like at work where some people spend a bit too much time worrying about what others are doing!

ohgoditsjames · 10 Dec 2019

bramling said:
Why does there need to be a perception of “fairness”? As you say the 185s are fit for purpose - indeed still pretty modern. Six car formations represents a doubling of capacity for the majority of services which previously ran as three cars, so in length terms South TPE does well, like you say as long as this materialises in reality.

It’s a bit like at work where some people spend a bit too much time worrying about what others are doing!

Can’t argue with that but it’s hard to not at least make a comment on it when everyone else is getting multiple different kinds of new stock left right and centre and we’re stuck with old stock!

Andyh82 · 10 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Can’t argue with that but it’s hard to not at least make a comment on it when everyone else is getting multiple different kinds of new stock left right and centre and we’re stuck with old stock!

The refurbished 185s are hardly ‘old stock’

In terms of passenger accommodation there isn’t much difference, in fact some elements might be better than the new stock

IamTrainsYT · 10 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Not sure if this is really worth a new thread or not however it’s cropped up a few times recently on other threads.

Why is it that every TPE route are seeing new stock with the 397’s, 802’s and the 68’s but down here we’re stuck with the 185’s and aren’t receiving any new stock?. The 185’s are actually quite nice however we’ve been promised 6 car 185’s for a while now and still they haven’t arrived.

The Hope Valley line has suffered with chronic overcrowding for years and is one of the most overcrowded TPE routes so seems a little “unfair” that we aren’t getting anything new and fancy!

What has this decision come down to?

Ah yes, the day there are new trains in hope I will be surprised

Trainfan2019 · 10 Dec 2019

I'll believe it when I see it when a peak rush hour time Manchester to Cleethorpes train turns up with 6 carriages and no-one standing.

bramling · 10 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Can’t argue with that but it’s hard to not at least make a comment on it when everyone else is getting multiple different kinds of new stock left right and centre and we’re stuck with old stock!

Grass is always greener springs to mind.

The book life of a train is 35-40 years. The previous fleet of south TPE trains were replaced and cascaded away after not much more than 10 years, and the current trains are not even at half-life. That’s not a bad deal by any measure.

If it was my local route I’d be far more bothered about capacity and upkeep. A train’s age should be irrelevant to the passenger.

Personally I think *providing the extra length materialises* south TPE potentially does well out of all this - the glut of currently spare 185s gives a golden opportunity to actually have a decent fleet size which offers plenty of extra capacity for both peak and off-peak, instead of having a fleet pared back to the bone as many new fleets are. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth!

IamTrainsYT · 10 Dec 2019

Every day passing hope the 185s are always standing, One even got cancelled because of overcrowding!

D365 · 10 Dec 2019

It sure is an interesting development to see a 13 year old fleet in the North being considered "old stock". Especially as they have worked TPE routes from new.

Bletchleyite said:
I'm not sure I'd be too bothered about having 185s provided they were in 6-car formations. They're nice units, and the quality of the refurb TPE has done to them is second to none.

I'll echo this. The refurbed Class 185s are a huge improvement compared to their original design.

ExRes · 10 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Can’t argue with that but it’s hard to not at least make a comment on it when everyone else is getting multiple different kinds of new stock left right and centre and we’re stuck with old stock!

Try coming down to South Devon then, new stock? that's a joke if you want to get from Paignton to Exeter, a choice of old DEMUs, a couple of Voyagers a day (which everyone on the forum thinks are rubbish) or a couple of 800s or whatever they are per day if you can travel at certain times, the only green grass down this way is in the fields

Andrew Holland · 10 Dec 2019

ExRes said:
Try coming down to South Devon then, new stock? that's a joke if you want to get from Paignton to Exeter, a choice of old DEMUs, a couple of Voyagers a day (which everyone on the forum thinks are rubbish) or a couple of 800s or whatever they are per day if you can travel at certain times, the only green grass down this way is in the fields

Don't even need to go that far, just try going from Wigan to Bolton, 142s or 150s or the occasional 156 (but I understand even that luxury has now moved elsewhere). Going from Wigan to Manchester is little better, you have a chance of getting one of the infrequent lake district 195s or 158s as they pass through if you're lucky but normally it will be a 142 or 150 as well.

yrreb · 11 Dec 2019

To be fair, there are pretty much no new-build DMUs available for build other than what CAF are currently offering - Something like an 802 I'm sure would be welcome but basically no point when none of the route is electrified, 68 + Mk5a sets may be a shout for South route but I suppose only time will tell, and it's probably down to what happens with LIV - NOT

ExRes · 11 Dec 2019

Andrew Holland said:
Don't even need to go that far, just try going from Wigan to Bolton, 142s or 150s or the occasional 156 (but I understand even that luxury has now moved elsewhere). Going from Wigan to Manchester is little better, you have a chance of getting one of the infrequent lake district 195s or 158s as they pass through if you're lucky but normally it will be a 142 or 150 as well.

Quite so, the point I'm trying to make though is that we hear nothing but how badly treated Northern are compared with everywhere else, it's not the case though, not by a million miles

ohgoditsjames · 11 Dec 2019

ExRes said:
Quite so, the point I'm trying to make though is that we hear nothing but how badly treated Northern are compared with everywhere else, it's not the case though, not by a million miles

Not so sure about that, we're still lumbered with Pacers and will continue to be well into next year. Even when the Pacers do go, many of the routes that they operate on won't be replaced with the new 195's but instead the 30+ year old 150's and 158's which they themselves will need to be replaced soon. Some of the 195's we are getting will be 2 car units replacing... 2 car 158's, bit of a joke really.

BayPaul · 11 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Not so sure about that, we're still lumbered with Pacers and will continue to be well into next year. Even when the Pacers do go, many of the routes that they operate on won't be replaced with the new 195's but instead the 30+ year old 150's and 158's which they themselves will need to be replaced soon. Some of the 195's we are getting will be 2 car units replacing... 2 car 158's, bit of a joke really.

Just the same as in South Devon. Pacers running on a derogation into 2020, then we'll be solely on 150s on Paignton to Exmouth, with 158s on Barnstaples. I'm not complaining mind you, they still seem to be quite appropriate trains for the routes, just pointing out that there is little difference to Northern!

Failed Unit · 11 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Can’t argue with that but it’s hard to not at least make a comment on it when everyone else is getting multiple different kinds of new stock left right and centre and we’re stuck with old stock!

To be honest if I am travelling this route I try to avoid the TPE trains and go for the EMR ones as I prefer the 158s. Old isn’t always worse as we have countless threads of people preferring the 365 over 700. Or HST / Mk4 over the Azuma.

I am sure people avoid the EMR service for the 185. At least the choice exists.

Mollman · 11 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Where have you heard that?

Various places on this forum

ABB125 said:
I had a flick through RAIL yesterday in a shop, and apparently (according to someone from EMR) there are three options for the split:

Transfer to TPE (preferred). This would probably be run by class 185s, with TPE taking back the 22 they are sending off lease, or class 68s and Mk 5s

Transfer to Northern

Don't split

Yes I am aware of the reputation of RAIL, but this information supposedly came from an official source, so is likely to be accurate.

If TPE run it with class 68s, presumably these would be transferred from their currently planned Scarborough and Middlesbrough duties. What would then replace them here?

johnnychips · 11 Dec 2019

It is just an unfortunate coincidence that the places where the units cross each other at virtually the same time are at Sheffield, Doncaster and to a slightly lesser degree Piccadilly. This gives little leeway for uncoupling and reattaching without having to shove a train in a possibly non-available siding for nearly an hour.
Meanwhile, I love commuting on a 185, fortunately contra-flow. They are usually reliable compared with new trains at the top of the ‘bathtub curve’. They just need regularly doubling up.

IamTrainsYT · 16 Dec 2019

Today at hope, a 6 car train to cleathorpes

BHXDMT · 16 Dec 2019

There are at least 3 x 6 car trains running around on the South route today. 16:11, 17:11 and 18:11 from Sheffield to Piccadilly have all been 6 car trains.

D365 · 16 Dec 2019

IamTrainsYT said:
Today at hope, a 6 car train to cleathorpes

Doesn’t one unit normally detach at Sheffield?

yorkie · 16 Dec 2019

Just a gentle reminder that we absolutely do welcome posts making suggestions for changes to service provision but we just ask that these are made in the appropriate forum section please. Thanks!

I have moved the suggestions for changes to service provision here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/196841/

Bantamzen said:
Once the Nova stock starts to roll out in earnest on the North TP / Scotland routes, and enough crews are trained on them I image that more 185s will be freed up for the South TP route. You've probably noticed but there have been a lot of issues on the North TP recently, so getting 6 car workings for the southern route won't have been a priority for TPE. Once things settle in, hopefully you'll start to reap the benefits.

Exactly. It's starting to happen, just not as soon as we'd like!

IamTrainsYT · 16 Dec 2019

D365 said:
Doesn’t one unit normally detach at Sheffield?

Not within the last year

Why no new stock for the Southern TPE route?

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