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Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

Mark B

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9 Nov 2019
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Hastings
Unused contingencies reduce profits. Do missing needed contingencies reduce profits more? Let's see!

And this is the systemic issue: compensation (e.g. delay/repay or to government as franchisor) needs to be much higher to make it suicidal to even risk what has happened.

These trains should have been introduced more slowly. I'm sure everyone can see this with 20/20 hindsight and I'm sure GA didn't expect to be in this situation. But the capacity issues with the diesel trains here and elsewhere as well as the looming disability-related legislation have been obvious for years. Why weren't new trains ordered a decade ago?
 
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AlexNL

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Why weren't new trains ordered a decade ago?
The history of Greater Anglia's franchise hasn't helped it.

From 2004 to 2012, it was operated by National Express East Anglia... if new trains were ordered in 2012, there would've been enough time to introduce them. That didn't happen though.

Instead, a short two-year franchise was granted to Abellio, which was extended by 2 years in 2014. It wasn't until August 2016 that a longer-term franchise was granted to Abellio, and then the new trains still had to be ordered. In hindsight, the short intermediate 'keep the lights on' franchise has been a burden which now culminates in this situation.
 

jopsuk

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Why weren't new trains ordered a decade ago?
Indeed. Frankly, as soon as the legislation was published the government should have been requiring the ROSCOs and TOCs to immediately, no excuses, to embark on a program of upgrading the Mark 3 EMUs, Mark 3 carriages and Sprinters (as well as Networkers and other more modern stock)- hell, any Mark 2s that anyone wished to use for anything other than charters ever again- with power doors, compliant information systems, new seating and seating layouts, new toilets etc. But that's a post for another thread.
 

Mark B

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Hastings
The history of Greater Anglia's franchise hasn't helped it.

From 2004 to 2012, it was operated by National Express East Anglia... if new trains were ordered in 2012, there would've been enough time to introduce them. That didn't happen though.

Instead, a short two-year franchise was granted to Abellio, which was extended by 2 years in 2014. It wasn't until August 2016 that a longer-term franchise was granted to Abellio, and then the new trains still had to be ordered. In hindsight, the short intermediate 'keep the lights on' franchise has been a burden which now culminates in this situation.

We are getting well off topic here (sorry) but I thought this was the point of ROSCOs - the trains are there independent of the franchise?
 

trebor79

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We are getting well off topic here (sorry) but I thought this was the point of ROSCOs - the trains are there independent of the franchise?
In theory it allows competition in the provision of rolling stock, which would tend to reduce the price of leasing stock. Indeed, the new GA fleet is financed and leased by a new entrant into this market, Rock Rail. Apparently the brand new 720s will be cheaper to lease than the 379s they will replace. This would indicate that practice can follow theory, at least some of the time.
 

stonojnr

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17 Apr 2019
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31
the problem I have with the EADT Q&A piece (and not least the EDP from the same stable is running a different line with their editor having a critical opinon piece) is its fine to ask the questions, fine to print Greater Anglias PR spin on them and even not answer the questions terribly well, but wheres the journalistic intent in that piece ? whats the point in asking the questions if you just publish them as is, because then GA are taking the EADT readers and by implication by publishing these without any comment the EADT are as well, for frankly well I dont know what and maybe the legalities of who pays the delay repay are bound up in why GA management refuse to admit any responsibility for any of it until such time as when its conclusively proven, but its a shoddy way to deal with it, not least because theres no hint that this is pretty much an indefinite service failure on those lines till they work out how to fix it, it wont be just a couple of days like this and everything will be back to normal by tomorrow.
 

AlexNL

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We are getting well off topic here (sorry) but I thought this was the point of ROSCOs - the trains are there independent of the franchise?
They are, indeed. But few ROSCOs are going to order a whole new fleet if they aren't sure who's going to use the new trains. The Porterbrook speculative 387s got picked up pretty quickly, but that's an exception and not the rule.

Similarly, ROSCOs aren't going to fund major overhauls (including stuff such as RVAR/PRM-TSI mods) on their own if there's a chance that the trains will be left to rot in a siding.
 

Failed Unit

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They are, indeed. But few ROSCOs are going to order a whole new fleet if they aren't sure who's going to use the new trains. The Porterbrook speculative 387s got picked up pretty quickly, but that's an exception and not the rule.

Similarly, ROSCOs aren't going to fund major overhauls (including stuff such as RVAR/PRM-TSI mods) on their own if there's a chance that the trains will be left to rot in a siding.

porterbrook did well with the 170s

I guess back then they had a proven product.

Not really many of these exist for the UK rail market at the moment. I remember the 1990s and the race to get the electro stars and 458s into service. The big difference was the stock was going to be cut up. So delays in stock entering service didn’t have such a dramatic impact into service.

going back further to the 1990s and the 158 problems. BR pressed mk2’s back into service (I had the pleasure myself). This option doesn’t exist anymore. But as others state. They didn’t need to return the old stock so quickly. Considering who runs ScotRail- how little they learn.
 

43096

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They are, indeed. But few ROSCOs are going to order a whole new fleet if they aren't sure who's going to use the new trains. The Porterbrook speculative 387s got picked up pretty quickly, but that's an exception and not the rule.

Similarly, ROSCOs aren't going to fund major overhauls (including stuff such as RVAR/PRM-TSI mods) on their own if there's a chance that the trains will be left to rot in a siding.
Especially not in the current climate where major work has been done (455 re-traction, 458/5 conversion) and new trains bought (707s) only for DfT to change its mind and leave the ROSCOs with expensive assets with no use.

Now you can say that is the risk they take - and it is - but it is dubious behaviour to do what DfT has done. Unsurprisingly, the ROSCOs aren’t going to be making big speculative investments unless they have signed long-term contracts.
 

F Great Eastern

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Having sat on a 755 today in airline seats, which I hadn't done up until now, it becomes very clear why Greater Anglia have selected a high density seat with a big niche - because they are high density laid out.

Literally in the seat I was in my left leg was hard up against the inner edges of the niche with the right leg up against the inner edges of the other side of the niche with a few cm between them with the front of my legs against the back of the seat in front of me. It wasn't comfortable and felt a bit like an adult being strapped into a roller coaster designed for older children rather than adults.

The seats themselves are not bad comfort wise and even pleasing in the table seats, especially in the raised sections, although the window seats suffer from having too much sticking out near your legs in places which means your feet end up resting on a boiling hot heater.

The PIS is good, even if it does flick about a bit too much for my liking which can be distracting, the ride quality is alright (but hard to tell on local lines) and the toilets seem to work. Doors seemed to be slow to open after pressing buttons though and the PA had a lot of interference and could hear the outdoors a lot during announcements.

I like the trains overall but the seating layout is poor. Too many seats have been shoved in these trains and the LEAN seat was ordered to do this. If they went for a Grammer seat as originally planned with no niche it would probably be physically impossible to sit straight in the seat in airline with the same layout. Without the Niche the LEAN would be intolerable, now it just about is for short hops, but for long hops, need a table seat or a extra space one.

All in all a good train interior wise, let down by poor cramped seating layout, which was my fear from day one when I saw the plans. If you're short or average they're probably fine.

Are all the non priority airline seats the same or are some better than others?
 
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Tug

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Literally in the seat I was in my left leg was hard up against the inner edges of the niche with the right leg up against the inner edges of the other side of the niche with a few cm between them with the front of my legs against the back of the seat in front of me.

That is exactly what I have been saying to the disbelief of some! The notch in the seat back is neither wide nor deep enough for both of my knees so the only answer is an aisle seat with one leg in the corridor.

Please tell me there is more leg room on the 745's. Otherwise once seat reservations come back I could be committed to a seat that I cannot possibly sit in.
 

Bletchleyite

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Please tell me there is more leg room on the 745's. Otherwise once seat reservations come back I could be committed to a seat that I cannot possibly sit in.

trainsplit.com is your friend - pick one you can :)

In the end these are local units which are replacing 153s and 156s (which definitely have less legroom than the FLIRTs). I too would be interested to know if the pitch is more generous on the IC units.
 

trebor79

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I have no problem with the legroom, although I think there may be a couple of rows on some of the raised sections with slightly less room.
The only minor niggle I have with thr airline seats is the diagonal brace which gets in the way of your legs if sitting in a window seat. Its not as bad as it first looks though.
Certainly better than a 15x in terms of space.
 

Bletchleyite

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I have no problem with the legroom, although I think there may be a couple of rows on some of the raised sections with slightly less room.
The only minor niggle I have with thr airline seats is the diagonal brace which gets in the way of your legs if sitting in a window seat. Its not as bad as it first looks though.

I'm not a fan of cantilevered seats - this is an issue on every unit that has them. Better to have the window seat bolted to the wall and a leg on the outside.

The heating conduit is also excessively sized, but it seems it's only Bombardier who have finally managed to design that out.
 

LAX54

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Update 0530: ALL restrictions removed on the 755's normal working resumed ! in the Colchester PSB area, trying to find out about rural areas, but assume similar ?

Edit 0700: Normal on the Cromer, so reckon it is Region wide :)
 
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trebor79

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I'm not a fan of cantilevered seats - this is an issue on every unit that has them. Better to have the window seat bolted to the wall and a leg on the outside.

The heating conduit is also excessively sized, but it seems it's only Bombardier who have finally managed to design that out.
It's the cantilever strut being so massive that's the issue. I've not seen such a huge strut on other stock.
That said, I do find I can get my legs into a comfortable position. It looks horrendous before you sit down, but it's actually ok.

I've been loving the cosy warm heating duct on these cold mornings!

My journeys to Sleaford get progressively less comfortable. Coat and jumper off in the 755 to Ely. Coat off in the 158 to Peterborough and rugged up as warm as possible, sat sideways in the seat with my legs in the aisle in the 153 to Sleaford!
 

trebor79

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Update 0530: ALL restrictions removed on the 755's normal working resumed ! in the Colchester PSB area, trying to find out about rural areas, but assume similar ?

Edit 0700: Normal on the Cromer, so reckon it is Region wide :)

GA Twitter a few minutes ago still advising major disruption across rural services.
 

LAX54

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GA Twitter a few minutes ago still advising major disruption across rural services.

Reckon they may need a few hours to get back into the swing of things ? But then they have said the 'major signalling' thing since day 1, which has been wrong too ! lol
 

Bikeman78

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GA have been horribly optimistic when it comes to the introduction of the new fleet. Their plans were based on the assumption that the trains would be turn-key and ready to go, despite involving a manufacturer who has never built anything for the National Rail network before.

This is interesting on its own - parent company Nederlandse Spoorwegen have burnt themselves quite badly in this way in the past, twice, but have learnt some lessons from it. Whenever NS introduce a new fleet they keep the existing trains on standby.

Yes anyone with an interest in the Dutch railways will recall the SLT fleet collapsing in the snow and dozens of stored plan V being taken out of the Zwolle graveyard and put back into service. The introduction of the latest Sprinter fleet has been much more cautious. They have been running for a year but the loco hauled DD-AR and DDM-1 were nearly all still in service until the start of this week. Of course it's much easier to do this when you own the trains and most drivers sign every type of train in the country. The DD-AR have turned up in lots of strange places since June when most of them have been spare.
 

Grumbler

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Update 0530: ALL restrictions removed on the 755's normal working resumed ! in the Colchester PSB area, trying to find out about rural areas, but assume similar ?

Edit 0700: Normal on the Cromer, so reckon it is Region wide :)
So that means the level crossing train detection system must have been faulty nearly causing a fatal crash near Norwich?
 

LAX54

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So that means the level crossing train detection system must have been faulty nearly causing a fatal crash near Norwich?

Think they just 'fixed' the 755s ! all other trains 153s / 156s / 170s /37s etc, had no issues on the line (or any line, whereas the 755s had 'issues' on all lines)
 

Meerkat

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Just because it was only the 755s it doesn’t mean it was definitely Stadler’s fault.
There is always the chance that 755 is to spec but NR turns out not to be to the spec they put on paper.
 

LAX54

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Just because it was only the 755s it doesn’t mean it was definitely Stadler’s fault.
There is always the chance that 755 is to spec but NR turns out not to be to the spec they put on paper.

Outside chance it was NR, but doubtful, when toy recall that no one in Ops at GA had anything to do with the order, it was the Commercial team.
 

trebor79

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It could be that because the level crossing thing involved a 755, the 755s were under suspicion?
Are there actually any documented cases of 755s 'disappearing' from the signalling system? Youd like to think if that had been happening, action might have been taken before a near tragedy?
Has this all been a storm in a teacup?
 

LAX54

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It could be that because the level crossing thing involved a 755, the 755s were under suspicion?
Are there actually any documented cases of 755s 'disappearing' from the signalling system? Youd like to think if that had been happening, action might have been taken before a near tragedy?
Has this all been a storm in a teacup?
last time we heard anything it was said to be about '23' at various places, not sure if that was after or before tho, hence the area wide ban
 

Grumbler

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Just because it was only the 755s it doesn’t mean it was definitely Stadler’s fault.
There is always the chance that 755 is to spec but NR turns out not to be to the spec they put on paper.
Well exactly. NR is in no position to blame the trains if they can't be bothered to communicate their requirements to the train manufacturers.
 

LAX54

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Well exactly. NR is in no position to blame the trains if they can't be bothered to communicate their requirements to the train manufacturers.

Not sure anyone bothered to ask NR, if the GA Ops had no idea, what chance did NR have ! lol
 

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