Battery Powered Electrostars for Southern

Southern Dvr · 15 Nov 2019

Doomotron said:
I'd be quite surprised if a 377/5 is 5 coaches...

That’s what you get for typing tired!! Of course I meant a /5 due to it being dual voltage and thus has ability to raise shoes.

RailUK Forums

aleggatta · 15 Nov 2019

Southern Dvr said:
standard practice these days is that if you go ‘off juice territory’ you should lift or remove the shoes. Just in case.

unless it's a 700... I'm not sure that it's necessarily a requirement that the shoes should lift, but it makes things easier with regards to route clearance?(and protects the shoes when not in use) and to be honest you aren't really making that much more space in the kinetic envelope of the train as the shoe beam is still there even if the shoe is lifted out of the way.

Southern Dvr · 15 Nov 2019

The last time SN operated off juice without raising shoegear was 319s to Rugby & Watford. Come every Monday they almost inevitably needed new shoes. It would be very foolish not to ensure the shoes were out the way of any high ballast etc..

Chrisgr31 · 19 Nov 2019

On the Uckfield line you'll be lifting the shoes clear of deer!

The most important question to me is whether a battery unit can either self recover or be recovered by another battery unit, as otherwise I can see big issues

edwin_m · 19 Nov 2019

Chrisgr31 said:
On the Uckfield line you'll be lifting the shoes clear of deer!

The most important question to me is whether a battery unit can either self recover or be recovered by another battery unit, as otherwise I can see big issues

It's a point I made on another thread in a slightly different context about whether trains on intermittent electrification need twice the battery capacity in case one of the electrified "islands" has gone down. In this case there's a risk that each unit might need getting on for twice the battery capacity in case it has to rescue another one. Perhaps the answer is to say that the rescuing unit has to be one on an outbound journey, so it still has over half its charge, not one that's been to Uckfield and is on its way back.

Energy · 20 Nov 2019

edwin_m said:
It's a point I made on another thread in a slightly different context about whether trains on intermittent electrification need twice the battery capacity in case one of the electrified "islands" has gone down. In this case there's a risk that each unit might need getting on for twice the battery capacity in case it has to rescue another one. Perhaps the answer is to say that the rescuing unit has to be one on an outbound journey, so it still has over half its charge, not one that's been to Uckfield and is on its way back.

Southern have a class 73 which should be able to haul them.

JonathanH · 20 Nov 2019

Energy said:
Southern have a class 73 which should be able to haul them.

What are you suggesting? Parking it permanently in Oxted bay with a permanent crew and fitting it with new couplers?

Almost certain not to happen.

Bald Rick · 20 Nov 2019

I should imagine there will be clear operational procedures in place for scenarios if any ‘island’ is off and how to deal with a failed train, such that it avoids providing twice the necessary battery capacity. Fairly straightforward.

For example, rescuing another train doesn’t mean you need twice the battery capacity. Power down the non-critical auxiliaries, and running at slow speed, will give much greater range.

Energy · 21 Nov 2019

JonathanH said:
What are you suggesting? Parking it permanently in Oxted bay with a permanent crew and fitting it with new couplers?

Almost certain not to happen.

No, leave it where it is and use it to haul failed units, it will take a bit of time to drive it out their though.

Argyle_mikey · 21 Nov 2019

So - best current guesses on what we can expect to replace our much-loved (mostly) 171’s ?

Mikey C · 21 Nov 2019

Argyle_mikey said:
So - best current guesses on what we can expect to replace our much-loved (mostly) 171’s ?

On past performance of other modified trains, 2 years after they're meant to enter service

Southern Dvr · 21 Nov 2019

Battery power 377s, at least 2 years later than required with another 2-3 years of poor reliability.

Argyle_mikey · 22 Nov 2019

So what covers the interim ? I thought the Turbostars were off next year ?

Fincra5 · 22 Nov 2019

Argyle_mikey said:
So what covers the interim ? I thought the Turbostars were off next year ?

I imagine there will be some Lease-Back, from EMR to SN, whilst the BEMUs are constructed/ tested.

Argyle_mikey · 22 Nov 2019

Thanks, apparently confirmed here :
https://mobile.twitter.com/marshlinktrains/status/1194926773634568192

Fincra5 · 22 Nov 2019

Sounds more like a disgruntled passenger rather than any actual facts.

The DfT/GTR were never going to be able to give the 171s over without any replacement. The DfT wouldn't allow it. Even though they don't own the trains... would be a disaster.

Argyle_mikey · 23 Nov 2019

Well the chances of any official information being handed out seems pretty remote, doesnt it ? This place seems like our best hope.

Further questions :
1. Anyone know where the conversion of the test unit will take place ?
2. Guesses as to when it might arrive either down here or on the Uckfield line ?

Cheers.

Chrisgr31 · 3 Dec 2019

Argyle_mikey said:
Well the chances of any official information being handed out seems pretty remote, doesnt it ? This place seems like our best hope.

Further questions :
1. Anyone know where the conversion of the test unit will take place ?
2. Guesses as to when it might arrive either down here or on the Uckfield line ?

Cheers.

We'll know soon enough as there will be delays whilst its recovered! Hopefully it will be tested on 3rd rail track so if it fails it can just connect back to the 3rd rail and move itself!

Argyle_mikey · 4 Dec 2019

Chrisgr31 said:
We'll know soon enough as there will be delays whilst its recovered! Hopefully it will be tested on 3rd rail track so if it fails it can just connect back to the 3rd rail and move itself!

...which is a particular problem for the Uckfield line should it fail near the country end - unless they install some sort of feed down there. At least with Marshlink it’s a relatively short run with third rail at either end, so you’d hope it could limp home.

Talking of failures, since I suggested the 171’s were “much loved” down here, there’s been a spate of problems. Rye shuttles cancelled again this morning. So perhaps the sooner the better that these are into service, although with four cars, presumably we’ll lose the permanently declassified first class.

Chrisgr31 · 11 Dec 2019

The 171s do appear to be suffering at present and on the Uckfield line we have had a number of infrastructure failures chucked in as well so it's all been pretty poor recently. None of which though fills me confidence on battery hybrids as their reliability could be even worse!

Anyone heard any more about the unit that is rumoured to be being converted?

Chrisgr31 · 12 Dec 2019

Incidentally one issue presumably will be that the Class 171s still require guards. The battery hybrids won't. I wouldn't like to be the driver of one of the peak trains that fails at south of Hurst Green as they have to deal with lots of irate passengers on their own!

Fincra5 · 13 Dec 2019

Chrisgr31 said:
Incidentally one issue presumably will be that the Class 171s still require guards. The battery hybrids won't. I wouldn't like to be the driver of one of the peak trains that fails at south of Hurst Green as they have to deal with lots of irate passengers on their own!

Depends on which Electrostar gets converted. If one actually does... They will need an OBS if its a 377 for example.

Bletchleyite · 13 Dec 2019

Fincra5 said:
Depends on which Electrostar gets converted. If one actually does... They will need an OBS if its a 377 for example.

OBS is down to the TOC, not the class of unit, isn't it?

aleggatta · 13 Dec 2019

Chrisgr31 said:
Incidentally one issue presumably will be that the Class 171s still require guards. The battery hybrids won't. I wouldn't like to be the driver of one of the peak trains that fails at south of Hurst Green as they have to deal with lots of irate passengers on their own!

Fincra5 said:
Depends on which Electrostar gets converted. If one actually does... They will need an OBS if its a 377 for example.

are the Uckfield and Marshlink lines cleared for DOO? I suspect they are, but don't know for sure.

Southern Dvr · 13 Dec 2019

Uckfield is not cleared for DOO.

Not even ECS which is unusual.

Fincra5 · 13 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
OBS is down to the TOC, not the class of unit, isn't it?

No. If its a 375, for example, it has NO DOO equipment and thus requires a guard. Thats what I was alluding to.

I can't say I know about the Marshlink but then the rest of the Network wasn't DOO cleared, until some NR paperwork was done... :rolleyes:

OxtedSignaller · 23 Dec 2019

No extension of DOO was promised so unless the DfT are going to pay for it are they really going to bother? Like said above would you really want to run a train down to Uckfield and it fails without an OBS because of exceptional circumstances. Would be mayhem and it would take a while for the unit to be recovered and so on and so forth. Apparently the replacement units have been confirmed so does anyone know if they are going to definitely be battery powered Electrostars or are they just going to replace them with another diesel variant?

Southern Dvr · 23 Dec 2019

I’m still expecting it will be a 158 in and 171 out situation for about 5 years and then some new fangled stuff will be brought in.

hwl · 23 Dec 2019

Southern Dvr said:
I’m still expecting it will be a 158 in and 171 out situation for about 5 years and then some new fangled stuff will be brought in.

Assuming they fit through the Oxted tunnel...

NWD_MT97 · 23 Dec 2019

Southern Dvr said:
Uckfield is not cleared for DOO.

Not even ECS which is unusual.

Not exactly true. Yes, DOO (P) services are not cleared for the Uckfield Line. However, DOO (NP) 171 services and certainly Loco only 73's, are cleared.
To quote the General Instruction from the current sectional appendix
"All routes on the Kent and Sussex Routes are cleared for DOO (NP). The only exception is between Appledore and Lydd Town (Goods Line)".

Battery Powered Electrostars for Southern

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

New Member