In the morning rush hour between 0730-0830, it's often a squeeze to get onto trains towards Waterloo. But the trains going towards Victoria people can get a seat. According to ORR, Victoria is the 2nd busiest in London for 2018, behind Waterloo.
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Why are trains stopping at Clapham Junction more busy towards Waterloo than Victoria?
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swt_passenger
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Comparing the headline arrivals at Victoria and Waterloo, you need to consider all the Southeastern services that don’t pass through Clapham Jn. That effectively removes a big chunk of the Victoria numbers, at least from the viewpoint of Clapham Jn...
Although it would be interesting to know how the interchange numbers balance out, as greyman notes, perhaps SN to SWR is more than the other way round. Perhaps passengers from SN services don’t ever try using trains on the Windsor side, that might make the problem more apparent on the SWR main suburban side...
Although it would be interesting to know how the interchange numbers balance out, as greyman notes, perhaps SN to SWR is more than the other way round. Perhaps passengers from SN services don’t ever try using trains on the Windsor side, that might make the problem more apparent on the SWR main suburban side...
also worth thinking about about the windsor side with perhaps up to half the capacity to waterloo but too far away for most to walk so may be those trains are less crowded ??
unless you often use those services you wont know the average capacity overall ??
unless you often use those services you wont know the average capacity overall ??
USBT
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Quite. And a lot of those from the Croydon area and south heading to the City and Canary Wharf go to London Bridge/City Thameslink.
And yes, Southern services only serve one half of Victoria, the other half being Southeastern.
Waterloo is within walking distance of Westminster and Holborn, has Waterloo & City Line to the City, the Jubilee Line to Canary Wharf, a number of useful buses and a fairly efficient taxi stand. Surrounding roads are busy but not gridlocked.
Victoria has a saturated, slow Tube line towards the City, and is handy for, er, a coach station. You can walk to Westminster. The roads around are painfully busy.
Victoria has a saturated, slow Tube line towards the City, and is handy for, er, a coach station. You can walk to Westminster. The roads around are painfully busy.
Bletchleyite
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Because Waterloo is within walking distance of the huge amount of employment in the City of London, and there's always the W&C if you're too lazy. Victoria is in an area of primarily leisure and retail employment, which operates to different timings and mostly isn't about an 0900 arrival at your desk.
Railwaysceptic
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People in Brixton can reach Victoria by using the Victoria Line and be certain of getting a seat.
43096
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Windsor side too far away? More like people are dumb and/or are too lazy to walk 100yds further!
There’s different morning peaks into London, very broadly two:
1) the early peak for people working in typical ‘office’ based jobs - eg finance, legal, corporate HQs etc.
2) the late peak for people working in retail, entertainment, media, etc
There is a much higher concentration of the former in the city, legal district and Canary Wharf. And a much higher concentration of the latter in the west end. Now look where Victoria is.
Its more stark in the Cannon St / Charing Cross peaks.
1) the early peak for people working in typical ‘office’ based jobs - eg finance, legal, corporate HQs etc.
2) the late peak for people working in retail, entertainment, media, etc
There is a much higher concentration of the former in the city, legal district and Canary Wharf. And a much higher concentration of the latter in the west end. Now look where Victoria is.
Its more stark in the Cannon St / Charing Cross peaks.
And of course from SWR metro services and those from as far out as Woking, by changing at Vauxhall.
Also remember that while almost all Southern long distance trains stop at Clapham in the peak there's a long time during the peak when long distance trains on SWR don't stop at Clapham. Working at Victoria I regularly get the 0846 from WOK which is first train after the high peak ban to stop at Clapham, several hundred people alight at Clapham with me
Metal_gee_man
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Also if you are a city worker, you make sure you made changed at East Croydon or further down the line to go to London Bridge because again its very walkable from LBG and shear numbers of Thameslink services and Southern services that stop at London Bridge or in Thameslinks case stop at City TL or Farringdon why would you go anywhere near London Victoria!
Employment numbers in the Victoria area have increase substantially in the last few years but still way behind Waterloo and worse connectivity to other area such as Docklands.
I always see the South Eastern trains into Victoria very crowded in the peak, many more times than Southern.
bubieyehyeh
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My trains from horsham, is busiest between East Croydon and Clapham Junction, it seems to more people alight at clapham than stay onto Victoria.
Yes! Next!
Cricketer8for9
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Looking at the Southern side it’s true, as has been written above that lots of people (towards the back maybe over half) get off. They don’t all go to Waterloo. Many go towards Wimbledon and down the Thames Valley on the Windsor lines (as shown by the two way commute from platforms 3-6 at Clapham Junction.
Going the other way (ie off South Western to Southern) is less common. Croydon is not the employment centre it once was and tends to be less well paid than Thames Valley jobs. There’s not a lot of other employment centres in the parts of South London accessible from Clapham Junction. And with housing in the Thames Valley being more expensive and housing in South London being cheaper there will always be a passenger flow from cheaper housing to better paid jobs.
And on the Windsor side anyone going to the West End can use the District line from Richmond or, if living in Putney, from East Putney or Putney Bridge.
Furthermore if someone from the Waterloo main line are wants to go to Croydon the tram provides an option from Wimbledon and driving an option from further away (there’s plenty of parking in Croydon - I work there at times). The point about Vauxhall for the Victoria Line and the West End is also well made. There’s also some walking to South Westminster as Vauxhall is zone 1-2 and so alighting there and walking saves a lot of money.
Going the other way (ie off South Western to Southern) is less common. Croydon is not the employment centre it once was and tends to be less well paid than Thames Valley jobs. There’s not a lot of other employment centres in the parts of South London accessible from Clapham Junction. And with housing in the Thames Valley being more expensive and housing in South London being cheaper there will always be a passenger flow from cheaper housing to better paid jobs.
And on the Windsor side anyone going to the West End can use the District line from Richmond or, if living in Putney, from East Putney or Putney Bridge.
Furthermore if someone from the Waterloo main line are wants to go to Croydon the tram provides an option from Wimbledon and driving an option from further away (there’s plenty of parking in Croydon - I work there at times). The point about Vauxhall for the Victoria Line and the West End is also well made. There’s also some walking to South Westminster as Vauxhall is zone 1-2 and so alighting there and walking saves a lot of money.
Cricketer8for9
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The Network Rail Sussex route study was clear that the busiest part of the main line to Victoria was between East Croydon and Clapham Junction. The southeastern side of Victoria has no comparable zone 2 station, indeed only Stratford is in the same league (or perhaps vice-versa).
And if there are delays there trains block back a long way - 6 signal blocks (ie Balham) for example.
And if there are delays there trains block back a long way - 6 signal blocks (ie Balham) for example.
Joe Paxton
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I dispute this, to an extent - there are loads of offices in the vicinity of Victoria.
This is pretty much spot on. Having been very familiar with all 3 of there terminals mentioned here, the further west you go, the less "hard" the peak gets. Cannon St is practically dead after 0930, whereas at Victoria there's still a steady stream of people coming through (on both sides).
Cricketer8for9
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Absolutely. I don’t know what things were like before the Victoria line opened and there is some benefit now in using London Bridge as the Jubilee line gets you to the West End.
I’d add on the two peaks that the civil servants of Whitehall, for whom Victoria is convenient tend to be more flexible with arrival and departure times, so 8 til 4 is just as OK as 9 to 5 and 10 to 6.
I’d add on the two peaks that the civil servants of Whitehall, for whom Victoria is convenient tend to be more flexible with arrival and departure times, so 8 til 4 is just as OK as 9 to 5 and 10 to 6.
Yes, I nearly wrote ‘civil servants’ in my post about office workers. But realised - as you have written - that they tend to work rather flexibly.
Cricketer8for9
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I am one, so felt I could write it!
Deepgreen
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That's correct up to the word "Line".
Railwaysceptic
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The Victoria Line trains start from Brixton. I assume the idea of ignoring the first departure and heading instead for the second train is as well established in Brixton as it is in Walthamstow.
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