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Centrebus group
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bussnapperwm
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For those who are using screen readers, this in a nutshell is that Centrebus Group have purchased the remaining shares of D&G Bus from David Reeves but no changes are expected to services or the brand.
Anthony ross
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Just the colour of the buses maybe from d&g red to centrebus colours
Centrebus vehicle gets ticketed at bus stop:-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53339599
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53339599
overthewater
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Jobs worth, that traffic warden.
bussnapperwm
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Not necessarily. If the bus was on the stop/stance for longer than the time permitted in the TRO then its a valid ticket.
Some councils, such as Birmingham, specify a time limit that the bus is on stand for in their TROs, with some LAs specifying that the driver has to remain with the vehicle.
If either is the case then the PCN is valid and any appeal should be rejected.
I come from a Civil Enforcement background so I know what I'm talking about.
The TRO and the timetable for a tenderd service are both the responsibility of the Local Authority.
Clearly one is at odds with the other.
It is for the Local Authority to make sure that one complements the other.
Ticket must be cancelled in the circumstances.
Typical action of a Civil Enforcement Officer in not fully investigating the problem before issuing a ticket.
Does the issuing of a ticket solve the problem? NO!
The Local Authority specifies the timetable of the service, not the operation.
If the timetable specifies a 20 minute break it's up to the operator to arrange a legal place to stop. In the same way it's nothing to do with the Local Authority if an operator decides to run a double decker on a tendered service that hasnt got clearance for it.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
That doesn't stop the warden being a jobsworth. It's a service bus on a bus stop. What a stupid ticket to give. Still, those targets don't meet themselves.
It's as bad as the wardens who hang around the back of UCH in London ticketing ambulances.
bussnapperwm
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Point of order. It is illegal for a council to give a Civil Enforcement Officer targets, incentives or KPIs in order to get them to issue set amounts of ticket.
If the TRO says that there is a time limit then its on the Traffic Department, not the parking Enforcement department. They don't have any discretion. Only the Head of Parking has discretion which they may delegate to the appeals team. The TPT have only the statutory grounds to cancel PCNs.
I've worked in Civil Enforcement most of my working life, so I know this stuff.
bussnapperwm
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TRO - Traffic Regulation Order - the legal document which sets out the restrictionsTRO, TPT and PCN require definitions, please. Thanks
PCN - Penalty Charge Notice - aka Parking Fine - issued under the Traffic Managemebt Act 2004 by local authorities
TPT - Traffic Penalty Tribunal - the local authority parking industry's independent adjudicator
bussnapperwm
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KPI - Key Performance Indicators or targets
As an aside, I've had a look at the Order and I noticed the following exemptions:
As the bus was obviously not in service, or loading/unloading passengers then it was not exempt based on my interpretation of the Order.
Heres a link to the Order i assume they're relying on- https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal....rough/Harborough-Consolidation-Order-2017.pdf
As an aside, I've had a look at the Order and I noticed the following exemptions:
THE LEICESTERSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (VARIOUS ROADS said:
As the bus was obviously not in service, or loading/unloading passengers then it was not exempt based on my interpretation of the Order.
Heres a link to the Order i assume they're relying on- https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal....rough/Harborough-Consolidation-Order-2017.pdf
Robertj21a
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It's still ridiculously over the top to ticket a service bus, at a bus stop, when just about everyone in such a small town will know exactly why the bus is there for a few minutes before it continues it's journey. It may be legally correct to give it a ticket but at the same time it also reeks of utter stupidity.
They have total discretion! They just can keep walking and not issue a ticket. Iv'e also worked in Civil Enforcement but kept my element of common sense.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Is it illegal for a council to treat a failure to issue enough tickets as a disciplinary and competency issue? No? Well then, there's your target.
It wouldn't surprise me if the enforcement official has already been called in for a quiet word to use some common sense, and the ticket quietly cancelled, whilst the local authority feels obliged to put out the press statement about keeping to the regulations to 'save face' so that any old car driver can't use them as an excuse to park where s/he liked.
The ticket would be fully deserved if the bus was parked on a bus stop, stopping other buses from using it, making them stop in the road, delaying other traffic, etc., etc., but I think on most days the traffic warden would walk right past.
The ticket would be fully deserved if the bus was parked on a bus stop, stopping other buses from using it, making them stop in the road, delaying other traffic, etc., etc., but I think on most days the traffic warden would walk right past.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
On the surface, this looks like one of those stories that gets the Daily Mail and Mail Online terribly upset.
I think the circumstances are this... there's a TRO that is there to manage the stops in the centre of Harborough. There are two double length stops in the centre. The bus was parked in one of those and the driver disappeared.... for how long isn't clear. I'd assume the TRO is there so that should 2 arrive, they can access the stop and not block the road, as it is a congested little place at times.
Note that there is a parking area for buses to lay over a bit further down over the bridge, outside the market hall; it's the nearest Harborough has to a bus station.
It may seem crazy but if a yellow peril gets there and sees a bus not in service and parked up laying over, and for how long we don't know, then they are obliged to enforce the TRO.
What is a bus doing at the end of a journey if it is not on a stand? Did the warden work for TIL?
Due to the lack of traffic, light loads and therefore less stops buses are arriving at their destination earlier than usual and are therefore laying over far longer than normal.
Tolerance is required by everybody including Civil Enforcement Officers.
Tolerance is required by everybody including Civil Enforcement Officers.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Thereby blocking the stops for longer and the contravention of the TRO is greater.
In all honesty, the warden was correct if perhaps over zealous. The driver parked up in the centre rather than using the layover point outside the market hall. We've all been guilty of "I was only a few minutes over" but we don't know how long the vehicle was parked. If the driver had gone off and 30 seconds later, the warden was busy writing a ticket then that would be unfair but if it was ten or fifteen minutes? That's the problem.
Robertj21a
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As I understand it, this 44 route timetable is specified by the council, who pay for it. The timetable requires a wait of 18 mins between two sections of the same journey.
THE LEICESTERSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (VARIOUS ROADS, DISTRICT OF HARBOROUGH) CONSOLIDATION ORDER 2017
Exemptions from Prohibitions and Restriction of Waiting
23. Nothing in Part II of this Order shall prohibit any person from causing or permitting any vehicle to wait for so long as may be necessary:
(a) For a person to board or alight from a vehicle;
(e) If the vehicle is a Public Service Vehicle is service;
I would suggest that the ticket will be cancelled!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It is tendered and doesn't work as a through journey so it could be argued that the driver should've parked up elsewhere. However, I'd not be surprised to see the ticket cancelled.
Robertj21a
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It seems to happen just once a day. I tend to agree with the earlier 'Jobsworth' comment rather than the pedantic explanations of how it doesn't quite meet every possible letter of the law. Given that there's probably only 1-2 wardens in a town of that size I'm surprised that he/she didn't know only too well that it happened every morning. In which case a brief chat would have been far more sensible.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Perhaps there have been words before? Perhaps the driver normally does park up at the market hall? On the face of it, it does seem extreme but perhaps there are some circumstances that aren't apparent.
I was surprised that Harborough had such a TRO. It's a busy little place (and with an array of fine pubs
) but not exactly crowded with buses
High Dyke
Established Member
Indeed. Many years ago my service bus got stopped for a vehicle check by the police; I was on a scheduled service at the time. When I questioned the legality of the stop an apologetic sergeant ushered the young constable back to the van and bid me on my way.
Equally, there are stops where standing is permitted for a specific time, when not in service. This should be indicated by signage at the stop.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Centrebus say it was 6 minutes and, presumably, they can check this with ticket machine data. I suspect the issue is that the driver wasn't in the cab, he was across the road buying a bottle of pop and a sandwich.
Given that traffic wardens are supposed to give a small grace period, I'd go so far as to say that the warden saw the driver leave the bus and hung around for a few minutes in order to ticket it.
I'm sure it's a valid ticket according to the letter of the law, but that's the very definition of jobsworth. It's very common with traffic wardens. The one that still makes me laugh is when a hire car was parked up outside HM Treasury and subject to a controlled explosion. Once the army had done their thing, Westminster Council's finest came and slapped a ticket on the car
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
In which case, it certainly is very heavy handedCentrebus say it was 6 minutes and, presumably, they can check this with ticket machine data. I suspect the issue is that the driver wasn't in the cab, he was across the road buying a bottle of pop and a sandwich.
Given that traffic wardens are supposed to give a small grace period, I'd go so far as to say that the warden saw the driver leave the bus and hung around for a few minutes in order to ticket it.
I'm sure it's a valid ticket according to the letter of the law, but that's the very definition of jobsworth. It's very common with traffic wardens. The one that still makes me laugh is when a hire car was parked up outside HM Treasury and subject to a controlled explosion. Once the army had done their thing, Westminster Council's finest came and slapped a ticket on the car
Robertj21a
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The parking ticket has, as expected, been cancelled.
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