Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Plans are already afoot for the regeneration of the area you refer to.
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Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16
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Plans are already afoot for the regeneration of the area you refer to.
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FrodshamJnct
Established Member
The WHSmith has now gone from the P13/14 waiting area and replaced with a new ‘quiet seating area’.
https://twitter.com/networkrailman/status/1196339934707273728?s=21
https://twitter.com/networkrailman/status/1196339934707273728?s=21
Jozhua
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That actually looks pretty handy, no idea that they had built that!
Not used the train to get from Manchester to East Mids for ages, 13/14 definitely a major contributing factor
...I'm making the trip in a couple of weeks though, actually happy to see they've tried to make something I can use to keep out of the cold!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That actually looks pretty handy, no idea that they had built that!
Not used the train to get from Manchester to East Mids for ages, 13/14 definitely a major contributing factor
For that journey I'd double back to Oxford Road for increased chance of a seat. I doubt anyone would notice/care, and it's not an expensive Anytime Day Return if they do (was once one of the cheapest).
Jozhua
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I always change at Oxford Road on the way there! I'm coming from North Manchester, so get the option of changing there or Piccadilly anyways.
Usually my train down to Oxford Road gets cancelled, then the Sheffield service is overcrowded/late or both and then its pretty common for me to miss my connection in Sheffield/Chesterfield.
Did the tickets used to be cheaper that way? I find it so insanely expensive, especially considering the level of service provided
That actually looks pretty handy, no idea that they had built that!
Not used the train to get from Manchester to East Mids for ages, 13/14 definitely a major contributing factor
I'm making the trip in a couple of weeks though, actually happy to see they've tried to make something I can use to keep out of the cold!
Well they haven’t built it, they’ve just stuck some seats in the empty former WHSmith
Sweetjesus
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Sorry I'm not in the loop but how many additional trains per hour in the corridor if the new platforms are built?
In theory 1tph extra for the corridor but 4tph for Piccadilly. It would mean linking services that currently terminate at Oxford Road with services from Stockport that terminate at Piccadilly (or a big reshuffle of linked cross city services to have the same effect. The corridor would handle 16tph more comfortably than its current (13?)tph. I think in theory Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 can support an extra 1tph than they currently handle but its pretty obvious that it would make problems worse so its not been done.
Rather than have HS2 sink a 7.5 mile tunnel at Ardwick to the Airport, how about sinking a 4 mile tunnel at Ardwick and surfacing it in Salford.
5tph gone without even touching the existing service.
Two new platforms funnelling into those 2 track viaduct lines and Spaghetti Junction is little more a solution than Ordsall was.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Those two platforms could be delivered much sooner and at much less cost than such a tunnel. Besides which for HS2 to make sense it has to allow for HS3/NPR for which a tunnel from the airport would be likely to stay underground to a point further out from Manchester than just Ardwick.
That is the short sightedness that got you Ordsall. It fails to address the flat junction conflicts or the saturated viaduct section, not to mention a hefty city centre land grab. The interim solution is much longer trains and probably fewer of them.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Remembering that there are other stations besides those in the Manchester central core area, when you refer to "much longer trains" are you intending these trains to only stop at those satellite area stations that can currently accommodate trains of that length or do you have in mind a programme of station platform lengthening of those stations who cannot at present cater for the train lengths you envisage?
Lengthening trains, and where needed stations, is by far the most cost effective way to increase capacity.
Killingworth
Established Member
In theory, yes, and if done when the stations were first built, or before many station sites were sold off for development it would bave been fairly easy. Unfortunately many station sites are now restricted by subsequent development and platforms can't be easily extended. Itn many cases it won't be cheap.
Compared to the alternatives it would be very cheap indeed. Even in London station platforms are being lengthened all the time. The challenges are not insurmountable.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Short sightedness is the most consistent feature of our railways and is largely due to relative disinterest on the part of politicians when it comes to the concept of long-term planning. Unfortunately very few people take this into account when making their choice at the ballot box. It could therefore be said that as an electorate we get what we deserve and railways are not at the top of many people's priority list. Against such a background there is an inevitable inclination for the industry to take whatever "investment" funding it can get even when the resulting schemes are obviously sub-optimal. Never mind Brexit, perhaps we, at least in the north, should be looking to leave the UK and become a new province of the Netherlands or Germany!
Or Scotland...
Killingworth
Established Member
SDO on fully corridor linked rolling stock makes platform lengthening less of an issue. Either way the operation of more trains that run to schedule would be a major gain, greater on many routes than increased frequency.
Jozhua
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New government, stuck on yet another delayed Castlefield train, time for another petition?
Edit:
Petitions comitte is currently closed, I'll have a look at making one once it opens again, if someone else makes a petition on their website let me know and I'll be happy to sign!
Edit:
Petitions comitte is currently closed, I'll have a look at making one once it opens again, if someone else makes a petition on their website let me know and I'll be happy to sign!
Jozhua
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And sorting platform overcrowding would allow more trains to run on time, causing less knock on delays when they need to cross the flat junctions.
Doesn't necessarily have to be an either or, but it definitely has to be a something!
If some junctions got fixed up and helped trains run just a tad closer to schedule it would be welcome.
Killingworth
Established Member
Apparently more than half of Piccadilly passengers use Platforms 13 and 14.
It's also, political, an easy win for Boris to announce (either directly or via his transport minister) to show that they are interested in the North and to "repay" those Labour supporters who voted for "him".
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is it not the case that any open/undiscussed petition matter would have been closed when the House of Commons closed for the General Election?
Yes. I was surprised it wasn’t thrown in during the election campaign, specifically when the Tory party conference was on, only a few hundred meters away... Northern transport infrastructure was repeatedly discussed but the 15&16 project was never mentioned. As the project is supposed to be “shovel ready” it would seem to have been an easy win.
Anyway...
modernrail
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I have had a flick through the posts here and couldn't see that this Network Rail report had been posted anywhere: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjALegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3bzDJIGZFVGDHTzfzLB2rZ
It seems to lay out in stark terms what amybody using trains through Manchester already knows. There has been a huge amount of unprofessional and wishful thinking on the part of the DfT, TOCs and potentially Network Rail in working out what the infrastructure around central Manchester can and can't do. It also shows what a pointless and unachievable exercise Graylings suggestion of a digital signalling is. What this area needs is more platforms (not just at Picc 13/14), less conflicting moves, grade seperation and a completely different and much better thought out service pattern.
The scary thing reading this report is that you don't really see any quick wins and the situation would appear to be likely to get worse in the short term.
The solutions that have been implemented already are also causing chaos. Creating lots of through services that don't need to stop at Victoria is just guaranteeing problems spread around the whole network.
It is a total mess and probably the best example of how fragmented railway planning can deliver huge problems for all.
The Ordsall Chord is a total red herring. The whole of the infrastructure in Central Manchester needs a serious re-design so it can properly act as the complicated termination and interchange hub that it is.
One option I feel would be worth looking at but is never talked about would be to rebuild and rename Salford Central to allow for termination of a load of commuter trains from the west side. There seems to be spare land there. New through lines look possible on the south side of the station, the north side could be for terminators. This would also seem to offer some grade seperation.
-create a dedicated train shuttle from Salford Cresent to the Airport with excellent interchange facilities at Crescent.
- install some public transport improvements at street level from Central into and across the city centre.
I presume there are good reasons why this hasn't been considered.
It seems to lay out in stark terms what amybody using trains through Manchester already knows. There has been a huge amount of unprofessional and wishful thinking on the part of the DfT, TOCs and potentially Network Rail in working out what the infrastructure around central Manchester can and can't do. It also shows what a pointless and unachievable exercise Graylings suggestion of a digital signalling is. What this area needs is more platforms (not just at Picc 13/14), less conflicting moves, grade seperation and a completely different and much better thought out service pattern.
The scary thing reading this report is that you don't really see any quick wins and the situation would appear to be likely to get worse in the short term.
The solutions that have been implemented already are also causing chaos. Creating lots of through services that don't need to stop at Victoria is just guaranteeing problems spread around the whole network.
It is a total mess and probably the best example of how fragmented railway planning can deliver huge problems for all.
The Ordsall Chord is a total red herring. The whole of the infrastructure in Central Manchester needs a serious re-design so it can properly act as the complicated termination and interchange hub that it is.
One option I feel would be worth looking at but is never talked about would be to rebuild and rename Salford Central to allow for termination of a load of commuter trains from the west side. There seems to be spare land there. New through lines look possible on the south side of the station, the north side could be for terminators. This would also seem to offer some grade seperation.
-create a dedicated train shuttle from Salford Cresent to the Airport with excellent interchange facilities at Crescent.
- install some public transport improvements at street level from Central into and across the city centre.
I presume there are good reasons why this hasn't been considered.
There was separate thread about this report about 2months ago...
modernrail
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Thanks, will seek it out!
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