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Northern and Fare Evasion
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Manchester Victoria, Rochdale (the worst sited barriers ever), Bradford Interchange and Leeds
Can imagine Northern are losing a lot of revenue between Bradford and Rochdale then.
Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden can be busy stations.
TheGrew
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Northern could do with more barriers, I feel like there are several stations which should have them that don't. Specifically these come to mind:
Manchester Piccadilly (Southern side of the shed), Deansgate, Newton-le-Willows, Lea Green, Birchwood.
Manchester Piccadilly (Southern side of the shed), Deansgate, Newton-le-Willows, Lea Green, Birchwood.
Piccadilly is getting fully gated late 2020 or sometime early 2021.
As for Deansgate, Newton etc, it's unlikely - data from revenue teams is used now to assess revenue risk; Deansgate has revenue staff checking for a large proportion of the day and the others are shown as lower risk, unlike somewhere such as Wigan North Western, but that's up to Avanti to sort out.
As for Deansgate, Newton etc, it's unlikely - data from revenue teams is used now to assess revenue risk; Deansgate has revenue staff checking for a large proportion of the day and the others are shown as lower risk, unlike somewhere such as Wigan North Western, but that's up to Avanti to sort out.
NorthernAspect
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Guards don't get anything close to 10% commission. East Conductors get 3%, West get 5%. It used to be a good way of boosting your basic pay, particularly on the commuter runs with season renewals, but now with buy on board, penalty fares, e-tickets, TVMs, barriers etc... there is a lot less opportunity to sell onboard.That might just be because everyone prefers the comfort and ride quality of Pacers!
More seriously though, this is a problem locally - there are lot of "pay when challenged" passengers - the local fares subsidised by PTEs are so low that the 10% commission isn't going to encourage judicious ticket checking - the standard practice is to open and close doors from the rear of the train - it seems easier to rely on the barriers at Leeds (etc) catching passengers rather than having staff getting round the train.
TBH a Guard may not get out of the rear carriage of a two coach 142 during a half hour journey (given the responsibility for operation of the doors) so even if the doubled up DMU was one with corridor connection, I'd not be surprised if they never had opportunity to get out of the rear half of the train.
I've suggested before that it'd be worthwhile having revenue collection on some of the busier bits of line - (assuming that Guards retain responsibility for the doors) it's maybe not cost effective to have three members of staff on board for the duration of each journey but I think it'd be positive to have revenue staff shuttling on bits of journey like Leeds - New Pudsey/ Wakefield Westgate/ Headingley, Sheffield - Meadowhall, that kind of thing.
Scotrail84
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Why is there a difference in commission based on what side of the country you’re working on? Surely the same company should pay its guards the same percentage of commission across the board as they all do the same job don’t they?
NorthernAspect
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Because there's two sets of T&Cs, a hangover from when companies were separate.
NoMorePacers
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The goon squad at Piccadilly are used as ticket barriers, to the dismay of most travellers.
Deansgate has been looked at several times and is not currently feasible based on the current station layout and minimum requirements for space around the barriers and lifts and DDA compliance. It would also require at least 2 separate gatelines which need staffing.
Newton le Willows and Birchwood were seriously looked at at the beginning of the current franchise as was Huyton. Any further gatelines are unlikely though unless specified in a new franchise. Northern have recently been looking whether it would be cost effective to cut hours of barrier line operation to peak only at some stations including Warrington Central and St Helens Central.
markymark2000
On Moderation
Isn't St Helens Central staffed all day though?
Which stations are specified in the franchise agreement for ticket barriers?
St Helens has ticket office staff all day. Barriers usually staffed 7am til 7pm Monday to Friday and as staff available at weekends.
Blackburn*, Bolton, Bradford FS, Halifax**, Harrogate, Liverpool Lime St (1-6, now 1-5), Salford Crescent, Wigan Wallgate were all originally specified for new gatelines and minimum staffing hours.
*due to original logistical problems at Blackburn Northern were given permission to barrier Salford Central instead and requirement for Blackburn was dropped.
** due to structural issues requirement for Halifax to be barriered dropped and Skipton done instead.
Barrow, Blackburn, Glossop, Hartlepool, Rochdale, St Helens Central, Warrington Ctl were all done at a later date but are not franchise requirements and no specifications on minimum hours.
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C J Snarzell
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Wigan Wallgate has barriers and the staff there are usually on the ball.
That said, I used their service from Manchester Victoria last night (13/12/19) and it was one of the worst journeys ever (there was an article on the MEN) - cutting a long story short, I was sat on a rather crowded pacer train for two hours and by the time we reached Wigan everyone on board was understandably very irrate and the girl on the barriers at Wigan simply opened the main disabled gate so everyone could filter through unchallenged. I assume the reason for this was because she would certainly have come up against a very hostile crowd if she began dealing with ticket issues.
As someone else has stated - across the street at Wigan North Western, there is not a barrier in site and I regularly access the station via the side entrance, where the bike sheds and BTP vehicles are located. Avanti may implement barriers in the future but only time will tell.
CJ
That said, I used their service from Manchester Victoria last night (13/12/19) and it was one of the worst journeys ever (there was an article on the MEN) - cutting a long story short, I was sat on a rather crowded pacer train for two hours and by the time we reached Wigan everyone on board was understandably very irrate and the girl on the barriers at Wigan simply opened the main disabled gate so everyone could filter through unchallenged. I assume the reason for this was because she would certainly have come up against a very hostile crowd if she began dealing with ticket issues.
As someone else has stated - across the street at Wigan North Western, there is not a barrier in site and I regularly access the station via the side entrance, where the bike sheds and BTP vehicles are located. Avanti may implement barriers in the future but only time will tell.
CJ
Can I ask what you expect the guard to do in these circumstances? Bear in mind the following:
The guard is in effect a lone worker whose first priority must be to look after his/her own safety.
The guard won’t know if the fare evaders are carrying any weapons, knives etc.
You can’t give a clip round the ear. Other passengers will be filming the incident to put on social media.
The cost of delaying the train will be far more than the evaded fare and cause misery to thousands of passengers who end up getting delayed.
Police response times are worse than ever and they don’t view fare evasion as a priority.
I’m not condoning fare evasion at all. Just pointing out a few realities.
You see, my preferred tactic is to say 'you won't like me when I'm angry'. I then turn green, rip off my crappy plastic absolutely not stab vest fitted shirt and ticket machine, immediately fill the vestibule, and twist off their heads with my bare hands and throw the bodies out of the door at the next stop with a witty remark akin to Bruce Forsyth in his finest years. Too bad they didn't notice my name badge - Conductor David Banner.
In the real world I am quite happy to challenge common or garden scrotes when they're being unpleasant towards other people. However despite your understandable feelings of frustration unpaid fares are a matter for the train operator. I will try and win over difficult groups with a bit of personality and banter and it often does the trick. Failing that, I can look after myself if needed but only a fool starts a fight where the odds are obviously stacked against and your employee is explicit in telling you DO NOT START FIGHTS WITH FARE EVADERS.
What we actually do is monitor, report and if they're at it regularly give them enough rope to hang themselves properly.
People who are stupid enough to aggressively evade small cash fares on a regular basis are also invariably stupid enough to make a mistake.
In the summer I travelled on Virgin from Wigan NW to Crewe, then LNWR from Crewe to Euston. I then used the Underground to get from Euston to Liverpool Street (and then on to Stratford because there were no trains running from Liverpool Street!), from where I caught a GA train to Harwich.
I obviously had to use a card on the Underground (I used contactless rather than Oyster) but other than that I was never asked to show a ticket at any stage.
Taking it to extremes, had I walked from Euston to Liverpool Street I could have gone all the way from Wigan to Harwich without a ticket, and no one would have known.
Ealier this year I was getting a Northern service from Lime Street to Mossley Hill on a Sunday, therefore an hourly service.
I think it was just a single 150. Anyway, the guard starts coming through the train as soon as we pass through Edge Hill. Nearly everyone had tickets or passes. Those that didn't bought tickets from the guard, apart from a group of 4 teenagers (late teens so probably 16-18). From what I remember only one of them had a ticket, but it was a single from Widnes to Lime Street which he tried to pass off as a return, and the other three had no tickets.
The 4 teenagers thought it was a joke, until the guard told them they would have to get off at the next stop, Mossley Hill, if they didn't have tickets. They got off at Mossley Hill and must have realised they would have to wait an hour for the next train, so decided to leave the station to kill a bit of time before jumping the next train and hoping the guard wouldn't check tickets.
I was ahead of them as we walked up the ramp to the ticket office, where there were three revenue staff waiting! I showed my pass and sailed on through, but now regret not hanging around to see the smiles wiped off the faces of the 4 fare dodging teenagers!
But 99% of the time travelling on Nortehrn services the guard never comes around, or just come through the train asking if anyone would like to buy a ticket!
I think it was just a single 150. Anyway, the guard starts coming through the train as soon as we pass through Edge Hill. Nearly everyone had tickets or passes. Those that didn't bought tickets from the guard, apart from a group of 4 teenagers (late teens so probably 16-18). From what I remember only one of them had a ticket, but it was a single from Widnes to Lime Street which he tried to pass off as a return, and the other three had no tickets.
The 4 teenagers thought it was a joke, until the guard told them they would have to get off at the next stop, Mossley Hill, if they didn't have tickets. They got off at Mossley Hill and must have realised they would have to wait an hour for the next train, so decided to leave the station to kill a bit of time before jumping the next train and hoping the guard wouldn't check tickets.
I was ahead of them as we walked up the ramp to the ticket office, where there were three revenue staff waiting! I showed my pass and sailed on through, but now regret not hanging around to see the smiles wiped off the faces of the 4 fare dodging teenagers!
But 99% of the time travelling on Nortehrn services the guard never comes around, or just come through the train asking if anyone would like to buy a ticket!
Scotrail84
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This is not limited to Northern. There are certain areas on certain lines in the SPT areas where TE's or Guards won't dream of asking for tickets as its just too dangerous, there have been many assaults on staff just doing their job. BTP being understaffed doesn't help.
At least one of the barrier staff at Wigan Wallgate has been there for ~20 years at least (I remember getting a ticking off from him as a sixth former!). That experience makes a huge difference.
As for Wigan NW, there have been a *lot* of revenue blocks there this year. At one stage, it was a random two or three days a week with Virgin and Northern staff doing a day or two each, both with several BTP officers in attendance. From what I've heard, 400+ fare evaders were caught. Based on that, it's difficult to imagine that barriers wouldn't be cost effective. Stick 3/4 across the old parcels entrance, and another 3 in the tunnel to the ticket office. Could easily be managed by 1 member of staff in quiet periods.
Wigan is helped by having a BTP station there- if they happen to be around they're very useful. If I've ever had problems in that neck of the world they've had to drive out and are generally very helpful and proactive.
C J Snarzell
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MatthewS
Some good observations - I've actually seen security people patrolling North Western aswell (the men and women who like traditional door staff wear their ID on a arm band over a hi viz jacket). From being in the police myself I know BTP generally have someone on duty in the platform office most of the day although evening is a different affair.
I think both Wigan Stations are in need of a slight makeover, certainly North Western is like a barn with people just coming in and out of the side entrance (I assume it's the parcel entrance you referred to).
One negative aspect of implementing barriers at North Western - genuine people (with no intention of boarding a train) would no longer be able to greet or see off loved ones on the platforms which I think has been one of the charms of WNW.
CJ
Some good observations - I've actually seen security people patrolling North Western aswell (the men and women who like traditional door staff wear their ID on a arm band over a hi viz jacket). From being in the police myself I know BTP generally have someone on duty in the platform office most of the day although evening is a different affair.
I think both Wigan Stations are in need of a slight makeover, certainly North Western is like a barn with people just coming in and out of the side entrance (I assume it's the parcel entrance you referred to).
One negative aspect of implementing barriers at North Western - genuine people (with no intention of boarding a train) would no longer be able to greet or see off loved ones on the platforms which I think has been one of the charms of WNW.
CJ
Peter Bonner
Member
Hull is a TPE run station but there are no barriers so no checks off Doncaster/Brid line services. Ticket checking by conductors is very variable on those Northern services.
Im not sure Northern put into place extra staff on days when there are one-off events like last Sundays Festival of Xmas at Beverley. Trains were heaving but didnt see any extra staff on duty. I was travelling to London and it took FIVE minutes to empty a Scarboro to Hull service at Beverley as it was so full. Cant believe they all had tickets! No signs of extra staff to check. And btw the ticket machine on platform 2 was not working!
Intermodal
Established Member
I've never been denied entry through a barrier to meet someone or watch them depart. Done it lots of times.
Jesus, when you think Piccadilly can't get any worse. How hard is it to just adopt the European model of no barriers but have regular enough manual checks that people buy to not get pinged with disproportionately large fines?
Then again, if we're talking about Northern, then at least today for people to avoid fares there needs to be trains to run
Even the Europeans are abandoning it. Barriers have sprouted up all over the place there over the last few years.
Can't see I've seen a single one anywhere, maybe you've just been in different places
They've certainly started sprouting around the Netherlands and France.
CC 72100
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I was going to say about France. The paris stations have them for local commuter stuff but not long distance.
St Lazare was the last station with no barriers at all, but now installed...for both local and long distance platforms!
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