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First Bus Edinburgh: Overground

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JumpinTrainz

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I was browsing through Flickr as I often do and came across photos of W6 FAL which was used to promote First Edinburgh’s Overground network.

I’ve always known First to be big in Glasgow and Aberdeen, however First’s popularity in the east has always been less in comparison to Lothian being the bigger company for different reasons. However I got to wondering how First Edinburgh changed to First Scotland East and then also First Midland Bluebird. When did they decide to drop the “Edinburgh” in the name. I also noticed that had branded the B7LAs as Edinburgh buses. How long were they used there as I noticed they ended up in Aberdeen (which happened to most of the Scottish bendies).

I don’t have much recollection of First in Edinburgh apart from what we have now but I did wonder when did First decide to try Edinburgh and did they go all in with new buses and new services to try and compete but failed? Or did they always know Lothian would be the superior network? Why didn’t they try and buy out Lothian like they did Strathclyde?

I’m interested in the story if anyone knows and has any info it would be appreciated.
 
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JModulo

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I worked for First Scotland East for a brief period, however under all my payslips it was shown as First Edinburgh (and bank statements First Lowland - another long gone division). In the industry Livingstone depot albeit under "Scotland East" is still referred to as First Edinburgh.

First pulled out of Edinburgh and the East Coast when they sold their operations to East Coast Buses (Lothian) and the borders stuff to West Coast Motors, T/A Borders Buses. This began in 2012 when they closed Dalkeith depot and transferred operations to Musselburgh. A few years later in 2016, Musselburgh and North Berwick depot were sold to East Coast Buses. In 2017 the last of the East Coast / Borders ran by First were sold off to Borders Buses.

There is alot of mixed views on First's operations and success (or not) in Edinburgh. At the end of the day they were competing against Lothian, under the 'Edinburgh Bus Wars', however Lothian would always have public funding behind them to improve services and vehicles.

A small silly bit of info, I co own ex First Edinburgh Leyland Tiger, D349ESC.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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In the mists of time, the operations were Eastern Scottish as the SBG subsidiary that had a major Edinburgh depot at New Street, plus depots at Linlithgow, Livingston, Bathgate, Broxburn, Dalkeith and Musselburgh as well as running in from Borders depots such as Peebles, Gala, Dunbar etc. That continued til 1985 (save Broxburn which closed 1979ish) when the Borders area became Lowland Scottish and Linlithgow passed to Midland.

With deregulation, Eastern (by now SMT) launched competitive services against Lothian but subsequently rowed back on these. The depot at New Street was a prime site and not included in the privatisation (I think), when SMT was bought by its management. Instead, a depot was opened near Tynecastle at Westfield. Midland was bought by GRT at privatisation, who subsequently bought both SMT and Lowland from their management teams. The businesses were subsequently merged to form First Edinburgh (!) later FSE.

They then launched their ill fated bus war in 2001. The impact of that was far reaching and eventually the mismanagement of the Lothian area operations saw Lothian displace First. As someone who remembers green Ailsas in Dalkeith, it seems barely credible that they managed it so badly.

Why didn't First buy Lothian like they bought Strathclyde?? Because Strathclyde had been sold to its management and employees who were keen to buy and were then keen to sell to First. Lothian never wanted to sell and the management/workforce didn't want things to change so it never happened.

Very much a summarised version of events.
 

oldman

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SMT had done OK with their high-frequency sprinter services targetting the big housing schemes but First gave up on this in favour of conventional buses.

The 2000 network was a response to Lothian's changes which included more frequent services on core routes including into traditional First areas like Musselburgh and Balerno, but you can see the gaps in the network - just two routes in north Edinburgh. First were still leading in the outer area and that only changed after the bus war as the balance tipped until First became the minor operator in their traditional heartland.

Lothian also made it difficult by having low fares for longer distances and even Edinburgh's geography trapped between the hills and the sea didn't help.
 

robertclark125

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It's also worth remembering, this came just months after the Fife First operation, launched against Stagecoach Fife in 1997, came to an end. Whilst Fifefirst was a success at first, within months, the operation was losing money, and scheduling problems and vehicle availability didn't help matters. During the fifefirst period, two other routes were tried, not in competition with Stagecoach. X90 from Dunfermline to Livingston, and 747 from Cairneyhill to Dunfermline and Edinburgh Airport.

When Fifefirst closed, the X90 was moved to Livingston, and the 747 withdrawn. It's interesting to note, both those services have, in part, been replaced by Stagecoach services. Clearly, lessons weren't learned in Edinburgh during that bus war.

One last thing, when Fife first closed down, the MD of Lowland, which operated it from Dalkeith, with the Dunfermline outstation (which operated the X90 and 747), also lost his job.
 

Jordan Adam

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I was browsing through Flickr as I often do and came across photos of W6 FAL which was used to promote First Edinburgh’s Overground network.

I also noticed that had branded the B7LAs as Edinburgh buses. How long were they used there as I noticed they ended up in Aberdeen (which happened to most of the Scottish bendies).

The B7LAs were only on short term loan from Aberdeen (July - November 2000) for the launch of the Overground and acted as publicity vehicles more than anything, albeit they did see service. Only 6/7 (W6 & 7 FAL) went down.

On another note sister vehicle W2FAL (which only ever operated in Aberdeen) was the prototype Wright Eclipse being built in late 1998. The vehicle is notable in that it was the first Wright Millennium vehicle built, the Millennium series being the vehicles with the (somewhat) iconic "U" shape windscreen. So in essence W2FAL led the way for the thousands of Eclipses, Solars, Pulsars, Geminis and so on that were built through the 00s and in to the 10s.
 

tbtc

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Agreed with the above points.

My brief history would go something like as follows:

pre-1986:
  • Eastern Scottish (and Midland/ Lowland in later years) ran into Edinburgh on various corridors (reasonably high frequency on some of them, given the number of buses coming into the city from East Lothian/ Midlothian/ West Lothian)
  • LRT services terminated at the boundary (e.g. the current 26 and 44 terminated at Eastfield rather than cross the Brunstane Burn into East Lothian)
  • About the only "co-operation" was the 61 to Herriot Watt, given how it lay on the edge of the city

1986-1994:
  • LRT services were extended out of the city (e.g. the Gilmerton services became Dalkeith ones)
  • Eastern Scottish ones picked up "local" passengers inside the city (which meant a lot of competition on Dalkeith Road etc)
  • Eastern Scottish extended some of their East Lothian/ Midlothian/ West Lothian services across the city centre to compete with established LRT services (e.g. the 86 through to Clerwood, the 129 to Silverknowes)
  • Eastern Scottish also introduced "City Sprinter" routes wholly inside the city - C1-C9 - most of these were operated by conventional vehicles but the flagship route was the C5 (minibuses every five minutes from Restlerig to Clovenstone)
  • Most of the City Sprinter routes ran along Princes Street (some of the equivalent LRT services ran along George Street or up The Mound or down the Royal Mile, so didn't serve the main shopping area)
  • Some of the City Sprinter routes ran into the heart of the schemes/housing estates, which LRT buses didn't - saving some passengers a long walk in places like Muirhouse/ Pilton
  • Eastern Scottish seemed to focus on routes where LRT ran circular routes (meaning City Sprinter were offering a route from the residential roads to Princes Street whereas LRT were running circulars that struggled with reliability and didn't always run into the heart of the city centre)
  • Over the eight years, the City Sprinter services become concentrated on high frequency minibus services (C1/ C3/ C5/ C11/ C50/ C55 etc) and LRT expand to Seaton Sands/ South Queensferry/ Bathgate/ Gorebridge

1994:
Peace breaks out, LRT pull out of West Lothian (and South Queensferry etc), Eastern chop much of their "city" services - this was all coincidence, of course, they just happened to remove most of the competition at the same time, you understand...

Late 1990s:
The newly rebranded First Bus start to flood their Edinburgh area depots with swanky modern low floor vehicles (okay, Darts that would fall apart before long) making LRT look rather old fashioned with their Atlanteans etc

2000:
LRT become Lothian Buses and sharpen up, cut up the circulars (replacing them with more reliable services that were able to divert from main roads to serve the back streets), focus more on fewer routes but with better frequencies (e.g. they had a map of routes/corridors with at least a fifteen minute frequency, a bit like the Glasgow Overground, instead of lots of half hourly services that they'd had in the 1980/1990s), introduce low floor buses etc

2001:
First had the chance to retain peaceful amount of stable competition but instead chose to try to replicate the Glasgow "Overground" in Edinburgh - they replace most of the long established routes (e.g. C3, C55) with direct copies of Lothian services (e.g. 22, 25) - flat fares of £1 - lots of low floor vehicles - going for broke - chopping and changes the services - it didn't work!

IMHO, First could have continued to enjoy a good slice of the Edinburgh market, the market was big enough, they offered something different, they'd have built up some loyalty in places like Restlerig/ Wester Hailes, they didn't need to take the big risk and flood Edinburgh in the way they did - other cities have the "out of town" operator running "city" services (the Stagecoach 59 in Aberdeen, the Stagecoach X19 in Glasgow) - I'm sure there'd be enough market on corridors like Leith Walk to co-exist - but they went for broke and it ended badly - hindsight's wonderful, of course, but this is what a sports commentator would call an "unforced error"
 

Jordan Adam

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IMHO, First could have continued to enjoy a good slice of the Edinburgh market, the market was big enough, they offered something different, they'd have built up some loyalty in places like Restlerig/ Wester Hailes, they didn't need to take the big risk and flood Edinburgh in the way they did - other cities have the "out of town" operator running "city" services (the Stagecoach 59 in Aberdeen, the Stagecoach X19 in Glasgow) - I'm sure there'd be enough market on corridors like Leith Walk to co-exist - but they went for broke and it ended badly - hindsight's wonderful, of course, but this is what a sports commentator would call an "unforced error"

Off topic i'm aware, but i just want to add that pre deregulation the 9/10 (later became the 58/59) were already Northern/Bluebird/Stagecoach services with no competition. During the bus war of the late 80s Grampian launched the 8 and 12 in competition running to/from roughly the same areas. After the war Northern withdrew the 58 with Grampian extending their 12 in it's place (the 8/12 had been merged at this point) - this was all part of a gentlemans agreement whereby Grampian/First wouldn't compete on Stagecoach services under the condition Stagecoach didn't launch any routes within Aberdeen. The agreement lasted around 20 years until 2012 when Stagecoach launched the 9U (which only lasted 12 months). This is the reason why even during GRT/FA's heyday in the late 90s they didn't really attack the 59 or venture out the city, albeit up until 2008 the 12 and 59 did take near identical routes - the only difference being the 12 goes clockwise in Torry where as the 59 goes anticlockwise. Stagecoach do have a number of city services now (9U/14/15A/44/59/94/119/727), however all of them except the 59 and 119 are entirely or partially subsidised.
 

oldman

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2001:
First had the chance to retain peaceful amount of stable competition but instead chose to try to replicate the Glasgow "Overground" in Edinburgh - they replace most of the long established routes (e.g. C3, C55) with direct copies of Lothian services (e.g. 22, 25) - flat fares of £1 - lots of low floor vehicles - going for broke - chopping and changes the services - it didn't work!

IMHO, First could have continued to enjoy a good slice of the Edinburgh market, the market was big enough, they offered something different,

I think you are conflating the 2000 Overground network and the 2001 bus war network.

I recommend the OFT report which quotes from First's own internal documents:
First Edinburgh operate four cross city services, three of which have a reasonably strong leg which is formed from a traditional First Edinburgh route extending through the city along traditional LRT sections of route, these city sections of route are not performing as well as they could. The fourth service [the 55] is completely “city” and is performing very badly throughout.

The non Overground network is a typical mix of 60 and 30 minute services which travel in from First Edinburgh's traditional areas via city corridors ... A lot of the vehicles are elderly and really don't compare with LRT's output on competing services.

The trouble is that at present, given that we are in something of a crisis situation not having budgeted for these troubles, speed is regarded as being of the essence and a "quick fix" solution is being sought. Doing nothing is simply costing us too much, hence the need for urgent action. The key to the success of the above strategy will therefore be in either i) forcing Lothian to retreat on the routes on which we have seen recent service provision increases by suitably annoying them [...][which they did, Lothian did pull back a bit for a while]. ii) or in our establishing a viable foothold in the Edinburgh City Market by means of a very competitive pricing strategy on [...][which they didn't].

In the Edinburgh and Mid/East Lothian areas LRT are the main competitor, not only operating a comprehensive network of city services but also extending out to serve on a frequent basis most significant areas in the Mid/East Lothian areas. They operate a very high quality fleet ... Publicity is excellent and the company also offers a range of value for money tickets, although significantly for First Edinburgh LRT treat the outer areas as part of “Greater Edinburgh” meaning that in most cases they are undercutting the equivalent First fare [i.e. what First would have charged if they could]. A great deal of effort has obviously been done in getting the product right and if we do not get a grip on the situation now, there is a danger that LRT will do what Strathclyde Buses managed to do and extend from the city to actually replace First Edinburgh in its traditional area.

It shows that First's position was not all that rosy, with a bit of panic setting in. Having reinvented themselves in 2000, Lothian won on network scale (in the city) and price, and over the next five years took the dominant position in the country areas as well.
 

overthewater

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What did Lothian do that First couldn't do in Pencuik? First had C70/64/65 which give them 10 mins service, Yet First pulled out
 

DunsBus

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What did Lothian do that First couldn't do in Pencuik? First had C70/64/65 which give them 10 mins service, Yet First pulled out

If you remember, First came off one of the Penicuik runs in 2000 then pulled their other Penicuk run the following year. I suspect First took the view that it wasn't worth the bother competing with Lothian for the local Edinburgh-Penicuik traffic, certainly not with Neil Renilson in charge and perhaps mindful of the bus war in Perth, which he oversaw and which resulted in Strathtay abandoning Perth and leaving it to Stagecoach.
 

JumpinTrainz

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Interesting read and thanks everyone for their input of information it definitely gives me a clearer picture.

By the sounds of things bad management is to blame. First had their territories of being successful in certain areas but they tried to have their finger in every pie so to speak. It must also be said that with Lothian being pretty much government and council funded, First were never really going to have any chance of constantly being able to renew their fleet like Lothian do. It’s gotten better in recent years but I can remember a time where FSE pretty much got all the old crap of the day.
 

oldman

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It must also be said that with Lothian being pretty much government and council funded ...

Lothian were not government funded at all, and financed their investment themselves. The councils didn't contribute to capital spending. The OFT report quotes Lothian having a 'return on turnover' (?=operating profit) around 10%, which seems reasonable for a stable sort of business like running local buses.

At the time the big companies were making very big profits from what were usually local monopolies, at the expense of the travelling public. Having to compete was a problem - bad management was a factor, but the fundamentals were against them. If Lothian could dominate the compact 15km radius urban area, First were left with slim pickings in rural East Lothian and the Borders. Plus West Lothian, which is another story :smile:.
 

156478

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Interesting read and thanks everyone for their input of information it definitely gives me a clearer picture.

By the sounds of things bad management is to blame. First had their territories of being successful in certain areas but they tried to have their finger in every pie so to speak. It must also be said that with Lothian being pretty much government and council funded, First were never really going to have any chance of constantly being able to renew their fleet like Lothian do. It’s gotten better in recent years but I can remember a time where FSE pretty much got all the old crap of the day.

in essence that is exactly what happened. The only good thing to come out of the old First Edinburgh empire of the past is them leaving the Borders and the Lothians, that is their legacy, leaving. Their replacement operators have all shown what can be done with focused ambitious management and running quality services and that it wasn’t all to blame on poor bus operating territory.

They can’t keep cross subsidising West Lothian forever either. The decision has to be made at some point like everywhere else to go. The rest of the ship has already sunk in East and Midlothian and the Borders. Lothian are doing what they have become very well versed in - a slow war of attrition. But First have chosen to stand firm in very questionable defiance.

 

JumpinTrainz

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in essence that is exactly what happened. The only good thing to come out of the old First Edinburgh empire of the past is them leaving the Borders and the Lothians, that is their legacy, leaving. Their replacement operators have all shown what can be done with focused ambitious management and running quality services and that it wasn’t all to blame on poor bus operating territory.

They can’t keep cross subsidising West Lothian forever either. The decision has to be made at some point like everywhere else to go. The rest of the ship has already sunk in East and Midlothian and the Borders. Lothian are doing what they have become very well versed in - a slow war of attrition. But First have chosen to stand firm in very questionable defiance.

In my honest opinion First are better dropping West Lothian. They are merely existing in these territories - not succeeding. Lothian will always be the more dominant operator. How do First expect to compete with tatty old 53 plate cast off Solars against the likes of Lothian’s B5LHs. There’s just no competition and they don’t seem to engage in any decent comeback to win over customers. They should stick to their strengths (ie Glasgow and Aberdeen). It’s such a waste of time nowhere near as much effort has gone into FSE for a long time.
 

Jordan Adam

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In my honest opinion First are better dropping West Lothian. They are merely existing in these territories - not succeeding. Lothian will always be the more dominant operator. How do First expect to compete with tatty old 53 plate cast off Solars against the likes of Lothian’s B5LHs. There’s just no competition and they don’t seem to engage in any decent comeback to win over customers. They should stick to their strengths (ie Glasgow and Aberdeen). It’s such a waste of time nowhere near as much effort has gone into FSE for a long time.

That's a unfair comparison as it's not like for like and said Solars are only on loan.

To be honest Aberdeen is not really a "strength" at the moment, fleet presentation is still rather dire with no real investment in new vehicles for almost 6 years, the network is a huge mess and being cut back by around 10 vehicles each year, one of the estates in Cove has just went from a 10 minute frequency to a hourly frequency with no evening/weekend service. Add to that Stagecoach of late have been eyeing up their routes and looking at starting up routes in competition along with a proposed major revamp of the entire Stagecoach Bluebird network next year... Arguably FSE as a whole is better off than Aberdeen at the moment.
 

JumpinTrainz

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That's a unfair comparison as it's not like for like and said Solars are only on loan.

To be honest Aberdeen is not really a "strength" at the moment, fleet presentation is still rather dire with no real investment in new vehicles for almost 6 years, the network is a huge mess and being cut back by around 10 vehicles each year, one of the estates in Cove has just went from a 10 minute frequency to a hourly frequency with no evening/weekend service. Add to that Stagecoach of late have been eyeing up their routes and looking at starting up routes in competition along with a proposed major revamp of the entire Stagecoach Bluebird network next year... Arguably FSE as a whole is better off than Aberdeen at the moment.

It is like for like though. Do I want to go on an old bus that rattles, smells and looks generally old or do I want to pay for a bus that’s newer, looks more appealing and will take me to where I need to go? Presentation is everything and the way some First buses cut around is disgusting. The B7RLEs on the 38 are so worn inside (as in have ever been refurbed in over 10 years!!)

Aberdeen is a mess atm, however what I’m meaning is First are better concentrating on an area that they have high dominance in. First are used fairly well in Aberdeen compared with FSE. They are better but their efforts into somewhere they have good clientele (ie Glasgow and Aberdeen). Lothian have pretty much the east covered. First are already in the minority providing a few services but let’s be honest aren’t standing out.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It is like for like though. Do I want to go on an old bus that rattles, smells and looks generally old or do I want to pay for a bus that’s newer, looks more appealing and will take me to where I need to go? Presentation is everything and the way some First buses cut around is disgusting. The B7RLEs on the 38 are so worn inside (as in have ever been refurbed in over 10 years!!)

Aberdeen is a mess atm, however what I’m meaning is First are better concentrating on an area that they have high dominance in. First are used fairly well in Aberdeen compared with FSE. They are better but their efforts into somewhere they have good clientele (ie Glasgow and Aberdeen). Lothian have pretty much the east covered. First are already in the minority providing a few services but let’s be honest aren’t standing out.

There's a few things that you really need to consider...

First of all, you say that First should simply pull out of Livingston and focus elsewhere.
  • What happens to all the exit costs associated with that?
  • More importantly, if you don't put up a fight there, where do you take a stand? When Lothian decide to take on Falkirk? Or when Stagecoach decide to re-enter the local Glasgow market? The reason why First are fighting is quite simply that - if you allow yourself to be "bullied", where and when does it stop?
Secondly, when you're involved in a bus war, do people really wait around for the shinier, newer vehicle? Most of the Livingston fleet is fairly modern, even if they are Streetlites. What really wins bus wars is boots on the ground as people invariably get the next bus that comes along. I'm old enough to remember when Cleveland Transit (now Stagecoach on Teesside) tried to muscle in on United (now Arriva NE) in East Cleveland; Transit went with quality - brand new Lynxes and some smart Leopards but United responded by upping frequencies and just smothered the better buses. There are countless other examples over the last 33 years that I can point to.

We all want to travel on newer, better vehicles. I do sympathise in terms of First - my local OpCo is fairly good but some of the fleet (54 plate Eclipses) are shocking, internally and externally.

Of course, someone will have to exit in West Lothian. Both can fund a protracted battle but no party can be burning through money indefinitely.
 

JModulo

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In my honest opinion First are better dropping West Lothian. They are merely existing in these territories - not succeeding. Lothian will always be the more dominant operator. How do First expect to compete with tatty old 53 plate cast off Solars against the likes of Lothian’s B5LHs. There’s just no competition and they don’t seem to engage in any decent comeback to win over customers. They should stick to their strengths (ie Glasgow and Aberdeen). It’s such a waste of time nowhere near as much effort has gone into FSE for a long time.

What about when Lothian first entered West Lothian and were using 04 plate B7s against First's 66 plate E400s? .....
 

Jordan Adam

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It is like for like though. Do I want to go on an old bus that rattles, smells and looks generally old or do I want to pay for a bus that’s newer, looks more appealing and will take me to where I need to go? Presentation is everything and the way some First buses cut around is disgusting. The B7RLEs on the 38 are so worn inside (as in have ever been refurbed in over 10 years!!)

Aberdeen is a mess atm, however what I’m meaning is First are better concentrating on an area that they have high dominance in. First are used fairly well in Aberdeen compared with FSE. They are better but their efforts into somewhere they have good clientele (ie Glasgow and Aberdeen). Lothian have pretty much the east covered. First are already in the minority providing a few services but let’s be honest aren’t standing out.

But that's a very small portion of the fleet, albeit i do agree they could do better with the 38. As far as West Lothian is concerned First on the whole have the younger fleet, better network and subjectively the better fares. Albeit there's already another thread for this topic.

First Aberdeen only exist at this point because there's no competition off the main corridors and it's the HQ.
 

JumpinTrainz

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My point still stands - First Scotland East and First Aberdeen are not where First want to be. FSE are about to lose their almost new E400MMCs to Glasgow. It would be ideal if Lothian were to buy out FSE operations and have one big network for the east. It would also be ideal for a buyer to take over Aberdeen and take them off First’s hands then they could move the HQ to Glasgow where it really does work and First still have a successful following.
 

overthewater

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My point still stands - First Scotland East and First Aberdeen are not where First want to be. FSE are about to lose their almost new E400MMCs to Glasgow. It would be ideal if Lothian were to buy out FSE operations and have one big network for the east. It would also be ideal for a buyer to take over Aberdeen and take them off First’s hands then they could move the HQ to Glasgow where it really does work and First still have a successful following.

Aberdeen is a city and first tend to do better in the cities, FSE has already lost most of its E400MMCs to Glasgow. Personnel I don't want Lothian to buy West lothian not until it bother to up its game and provide a aproper WEEKLY ticket. MM/MCC/CC what ever there are called would start an investigation.

If Aberdeen were to go, HQ would just move to Rotherham?
 

Volvodart

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Most admin functions at Aberdeen are gone, it's only really the HQ in name and that's about it really.

The new Chief Executive has refused to be interviewed by the local Aberdeen press since his appointment, so that probably gives an indication of the way things will be going.
 

overthewater

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The new Chief Executive has refused to be interviewed by the local Aberdeen press since his appointment, so that probably gives an indication of the way things will be going.

So how long before Aberdeen Stops being HQ?
 
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