Interchanging between routes in and out of South London terminals

AlbertBeale · 16 Dec 2019

It used to be the case that tickets between London and anywhere on the south coast could be used to and from whichever south London terminal was convenient, by switching between lines at London Bridge, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, etc etc, to link between the terminal you wanted to use, and the line you needed for the destination. I presume this is still fine in a London Terminals ticket (subject to any other restrictions such as tickets only valid on the trains of a particular operator).

However, if using a ticket which is valid to/from only certain London terminals (eg "London Thameslink"), is there still full flexibility of route to/through south London to reach that terminal? For example, travelling to London from Brighton on a ticket specifically to "Thameslink", but not tied to T/L route/trains (such as with a "Not Underground" routeing but with no other route restrictions), is it possible, eg, to use Southern to Clapham Junction, then hop to Waterloo to connect from Waterloo East to London Bridge?

Thanks in advance for all your expertise...

RailUK Forums

JB_B · 16 Dec 2019

I think short answer is you can use any permitted route from Brighton to whichever of the London Thameslink destinations from the south you choose; you can't use the underground.

To recap permitted routes are

a) direct trains;

b) shortest route and routes within 3 miles of the shortest. (In a dense part of the network like south London the 3 mile margin adds a lot of potential routes); and

c) mapped routes. The relevant maps from Brighton to London Routeing Point Group are LB and VB - see http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps.

The easiest way to check if a route is permitted is to check if a journey planner will offer it.

Searching NRE with Clapham Junction and Waterloo as via points - shows the £18.60 single Brighton to London Thameslink - route: not underground ticket is indeed valid via the route you want on the 11.03 departure.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...1103/dep?via=Clapham_Junction,London_Waterloo

As we discussed in the other thread on this, NRE doesn't make the destination explicit but the ticket it offers for the 1103 is this one: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BTN&dest=LBG&grpd=4452&rte=208&tkt=CDS. You might find it easier to use a non-splitting retail site which supports multiple via/avoids points - e.g. trainscanbecheaper.info .

AlbertBeale · 16 Dec 2019

JB_B said:
I think short answer is you can use any permitted route from Brighton to whichever of the London Thameslink destinations from the south you choose; you can't use the underground.

To recap permitted routes are

a) direct trains;

b) shortest route and routes within 3 miles of the shortest. (In a dense part of the network like south London the 3 mile margin adds a lot of potential routes); and

c) mapped routes. The relevant maps from Brighton to London Routeing Point Group are LB and VB - see http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps.

The easiest way to check if a route is permitted is to check if a journey planner will offer it.

Searching NRE with Clapham Junction and Waterloo as via points - shows the £18.60 single Brighton to London Thameslink - route: not underground ticket is indeed valid via the route you want on the 11.03 departure.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...1103/dep?via=Clapham_Junction,London_Waterloo

As we discussed in the other thread on this, NRE doesn't make the destination explicit but the ticket it offers for the 1103 is this one: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BTN&dest=LBG&grpd=4452&rte=208&tkt=CDS. You might find it easier to use a non-splitting retail site which supports multiple via/avoids points - e.g. trainscanbecheaper.info .

Brilliant - thanks so much!

That'll save me a few quid on my next outing to Brighton!

(I assume that these sorts of off-peak singles and cheap day returns allow break of journey; in fact, if you need to change trains they can hardly stop you I guess...)

hkstudent · 16 Dec 2019

AlbertBeale said:
Brilliant - thanks so much!

That'll save me a few quid on my next outing to Brighton!

(I assume that these sorts of off-peak singles and cheap day returns allow break of journey; in fact, if you need to change trains they can hardly stop you I guess...)

If you want to play safe, get a printed itinery on hand to arm yourself.

JB_B · 16 Dec 2019

AlbertBeale said:
Brilliant - thanks so much!

That'll save me a few quid on my next outing to Brighton!

I think it's quite possible that the ticket won't work the barriers at Waterloo and Waterloo East.

Unfortunately, on-board staff (and especially gateline staff) often don't have the training to correctly identify valid tickets. You might want to buy your ticket from a website along with an intinerary ( or at least take a copy of the relevant NRE result ) in order to avoid any arguments.

AlbertBeale said:
Brilliant - thanks so much!
(I assume that these sorts of off-peak singles and cheap day returns allow break of journey; in fact, if you need to change trains they can hardly stop you I guess...)

Yes, these tickets allow break of journey.

AlbertBeale · 17 Dec 2019

JB_B said:
I think it's quite possible that the ticket won't work the barriers at Waterloo and Waterloo East.

Unfortunately, on-board staff (and especially gateline staff) often don't have the training to correctly identify valid tickets. You might want to buy your ticket from a website along with an intinerary ( or at least take a copy of the relevant NRE result ) in order to avoid any arguments.

Yes, these tickets allow break of journey.

I feel an outing to Brighton coming on... I'll report back!

JB_B · 17 Dec 2019

Given that NRE have a map which purports to show that these tickets aren't valid at Vauxhall,Waterloo and Waterloo East, I would certainly recommend buy the ticket with an itinerary - a good third party retailer should be able to back you up in the event of a dispute.

AlbertBeale · 17 Dec 2019

JB_B said:
Given that NRE have a map which purports to show that these tickets aren't valid at Vauxhall,Waterloo and Waterloo East, I would certainly recommend buy the ticket with an itinerary - a good third party retailer should be able to back you up in the event of a dispute.

Thanks so much. I've found an itinerary from a retailer like that, though it only shows if for one particular train at a time - but it says it's a flexible ticket; which adds to the evidence. The only thing I can't find is a general statement that going that way round is a valid route London Bridge to Brighton route (the BR routing maps you refer to - LB and VB - just show London as one blob). So is any instance of that route being valid - such as a print-out from a query on a recognised sales site - evidence that it always is (subject to it not being a ticket constrained to a particular route, and so on)?

(I could be travelling with a friend who might not enjoy the hoo-ha of standing up for our rights as much as I might.)

AlbertBeale · 17 Dec 2019

AlbertBeale said:
Thanks so much. I've found an itinerary from a retailer like that, though it only shows if for one particular train at a time - but it says it's a flexible ticket; which adds to the evidence. The only thing I can't find is a general statement that going that way round is a valid route London Bridge to Brighton route (the BR routing maps you refer to - LB and VB - just show London as one blob). So is any instance of that route being valid - such as a print-out from a query on a recognised sales site - evidence that it always is (subject to it not being a ticket constrained to a particular route, and so on)?

Aha - maybe ATOC routing map LB, showing Clapham Junction as a routing point to Brighton from London and Bedford [albeit with no further inner London detail shown] is - after all - the evidence I need? (Though I don't understand the implications of the difference between what's marked on the map as a Routeing Point and what's shown as an Interchange.)

[.n] · 17 Dec 2019

In your example, assuming you weren't wanting a break of journey en route, then changing at East Croydon would be simpler

AlbertBeale · 18 Dec 2019

[.n] said:
In your example, assuming you weren't wanting a break of journey en route, then changing at East Croydon would be simpler

Yes. But the point of my trying to sort this out is precisely in order that I know can travel from Brighton via non-T/L stations such as Waterloo on a ticket with T/L destination; and so, by breaking my journey, or even(!) ending short of my destination, have more flexibility when using the cheaper tickets...

andrewkeith5 · 18 Dec 2019

Waterloo and London Bridge are so close together, is it really worth the hassle of trying to pick out a tiny loophole that nobody will have considered in a ticket that essentially only exists to allow an exception to one specific restriction that has nothing to do with Waterloo?

JB_B · 18 Dec 2019

This thread covers a similar question re validity of London Thameslink tickets at Victoria.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...with-a-thameslink-ticket.173354/#post-3722755

You may find that although these routes are currently technically valid, that might change (possibly without any warning.)

Gerald Fiennes · 18 Dec 2019

You may find it cheaper (in off peak periods at least) to use Oyster to Gatwick Airport and then get new tickets from there. Don't get the Gatwick Express trains as they cost a fortune, but the ordinary Southern and Thameslink ones are fine. However, there is no free Break of Journey with Oyster/Contactless so if you are planning to swap between Waterloo and Waterloo East you may be charged more (the system will probably not do this if you go from one to the other in less than 40mins or so. In some ways Oyster is better, in others just adds more complexity. National rail and TfL have never managed to harmonise their terms and conditions to this day.

Interchanging between routes in and out of South London terminals

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