• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Signal failure in the Croydon area (18/12)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

southerner

Member
Joined
9 Oct 2015
Messages
6
I sincerely hope you are not serious with those questions.
A power outage in Sussex really shouldn't affect other lines in and out of a central London Terminus like Victoria. It's probably 20-25 miles away! Thats a huge distance in London power infrastructure terms. If it was a signalling failure in Sussex, the signalling control is concentrated in one physically remote place that is covering much too wide an area to be able to react locally and mitigate, if not resolve, the stuck train issues. I have a lot of sympathy for those many Gatwick Express customers I saw piled up on the Gat-Ex platforms - their flights won't wait for them. But that is just one line, not the only route out of Victoria and plenty of routes diverge many miles before Gatwick/3 Bridges. The whole efficiency versus effectiveness thing has just gone way too far on the railway and it is costing the railway dearly.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
A power outage in Sussex really shouldn't affect other lines in and out of a central London Terminus like Victoria. It's probably 20-25 miles away! Thats a huge distance in London power infrastructure terms. If it was a signalling failure in Sussex, the signalling control is concentrated in one physically remote place that is covering much too wide an area to be able to react locally and mitigate, if not resolve, the stuck train issues. I have a lot of sympathy for those many Gatwick Express customers I saw piled up on the Gat-Ex platforms - their flights won't wait for them. But that is just one line, not the only route out of Victoria and plenty of routes diverge many miles before Gatwick/3 Bridges. The whole efficiency versus effectiveness thing has just gone way too far on the railway and it is costing the railway dearly.

Won't a great deal of that area, far more than 20-25 miles, be managed from the Three Bridges signal box?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
A power outage in Sussex really shouldn't affect other lines in and out of a central London Terminus like Victoria. It's probably 20-25 miles away! Thats a huge distance in London power infrastructure terms. If it was a signalling failure in Sussex, the signalling control is concentrated in one physically remote place that is covering much too wide an area to be able to react locally and mitigate, if not resolve, the stuck train issues. I have a lot of sympathy for those many Gatwick Express customers I saw piled up on the Gat-Ex platforms - their flights won't wait for them. But that is just one line, not the only route out of Victoria and plenty of routes diverge many miles before Gatwick/3 Bridges. The whole efficiency versus effectiveness thing has just gone way too far on the railway and it is costing the railway dearly.

The power failure was in south London, not Sussex. All signalling was lost in an area covering Streatham / Anerley to South and West Croydon. Nothing could run through those areas. We need to be clear - this had nothing to do with the ROC, except that trains in one part of the failed area (Streatham) are controlled from there. Most of the failed area is controlled from Three Bridges ASC. At no point did any of the ROC or ASC systems fail. There would have been the same issue had the area been controlled from local signalboxes at every station, except it would have taken longer to fix, as their electrical protection wouldn’t have been so good.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,340
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
A power outage in Sussex really shouldn't affect other lines in and out of a central London Terminus like Victoria. It's probably 20-25 miles away! Thats a huge distance in London power infrastructure terms. If it was a signalling failure in Sussex, the signalling control is concentrated in one physically remote place that is covering much too wide an area to be able to react locally and mitigate, if not resolve, the stuck train issues. I have a lot of sympathy for those many Gatwick Express customers I saw piled up on the Gat-Ex platforms - their flights won't wait for them. But that is just one line, not the only route out of Victoria and plenty of routes diverge many miles before Gatwick/3 Bridges. The whole efficiency versus effectiveness thing has just gone way too far on the railway and it is costing the railway dearly.
Possibly, but it is going to continue unabated with even wider areas covered remotely. Society becomes evermore dependant on automation and computer control - it's inevitable. Only a total change in train control protocol in ways I can't imagine could change this. Manual or local control is gone forever.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
On SWR at least, code black is pretty rare. Code red is used in abundance but black is seldom used.
The Southern / Thameslink network is much worse for reactionary delay that anywhere else on the network...
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
I was driving one of the trains stuck between stations for a hour and then later at Thornton Heath for a further 45mins. Just want to praise the signallers who were excellent in communicating with us today.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,556
Has the cleaning lady trod on the 3-pin plug at Three Bridges ROC ??? o_Oo_O:D:D:D:E:E:E
Passengers were being advised that they could use SWR trains but I guess it depends where you needed to go.

It did lead to some unusual train routes. When was the last train a train ran from Redhill to Littlehampton via Hove?

Last night we had the 17:55 departure from Redhill. Arriving into Littlehampton some 20 minutes late at 19:37.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O72004/2019-12-18
Screenshot_20191219-013119_Chrome.jpg
 

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,753
Yet another UKPN power issue ! think it took the UPS with it when it went !
 

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,753
Possibly, but it is going to continue unabated with even wider areas covered remotely. Society becomes evermore dependant on automation and computer control - it's inevitable. Only a total change in train control protocol in ways I can't imagine could change this. Manual or local control is gone forever.

If there ain't no electrickery then no one is going anywhere, be it manual or automated :)
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,556
Northbound trains currently non stopping Gatwick Airport due to lighting problems.
Most Southbound skipping it too. I take it, this is an unrelated issue to the East Croydon one.

This is of course leading to the northbound Gatwick Express services not stopping at Gatwick Airport! They aren't even stopping at Three Bridges or Horley instead to allow Gatwick Express customers to find other closer means of reaching Gatwick Airport. The first one to stop at Gatwick Airport will be the 8:12 from Brighton, just some 2 hours after the first one from Brighton should have stopped there.

Generators were being installed but they take time to setup. Apparently it wasn't safe enough to run trains to platforms other than number 7, with the emergency lighting that is in use.

I remember when Guildford Station lighting was out, for I think two night. The first night they allowed customers to use the footbridge. They didn't the next night if my memory serves me correctly.

Must be fun those needing to catch flights. I wonder how busy the few trains stopping at Gatwick Airport are?
 

Tomp94

Member
Joined
9 May 2019
Messages
179
London Bridge was rubbish this evening. Not a single manual announcement. Every train shown as on time and then just disappeared off the boards as the departure time passed.

I popped down to my local station (Durrington-On-Sea) to collect a ticket for travel at the weekend, the info boards were also showing the London bound trains as on time, despite the board also saying the train hadn't left Littlehampton, and the due arrival time was less than 10 minutes away (normally a 20 minute journey) ... but the screens did say to check the national rail journey planner instead.
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
So I would assume that UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) is only good for certain types of "interruption" then? I think they need to change the name!

UPS are generally only designed to function for a short period of time, to allow backup generators to be deployed, or to allow a controlled shutdown of systems.
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,575
The power failure was in south London, not Sussex. All signalling was lost in an area covering Streatham / Anerley to South and West Croydon. Nothing could run through those areas. We need to be clear - this had nothing to do with the ROC, except that trains in one part of the failed area (Streatham) are controlled from there. Most of the failed area is controlled from Three Bridges ASC. At no point did any of the ROC or ASC systems fail. There would have been the same issue had the area been controlled from local signalboxes at every station, except it would have taken longer to fix, as their electrical protection wouldn’t have been so good.
Thanks for some useful information at last. It sounds like it took out both Gloucester Road and east Croydon interlockings - are these still relay interlockings? Back in the era when these types of relay interlockings were being installed on the Southern, it was usual to obtain the signalling power from the traction substations. So was there an issue with the traction supply?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
AIUI there was a power surge which caused all the protecting devices to kick in (as designed) to protect various bits of sensitive kit - interlockings, transmission, etc. This would explain why some UPS went off line, and why some signalling was restored much more quickly than others.

It affected several other interlockings too, all but one of them relays.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
On SWR at least, code black is pretty rare. Code red is used in abundance but black is seldom used.

I’ve only seen Code Black about three times in a decade on the GN, all weather related.
 

londonbridge

Established Member
Joined
30 Jun 2010
Messages
1,448
I loved the comment from a commuter who, when advised to use alternative routes, replied 'show me a route from London to Brighton that doesn't go through East Croydon.
 

al78

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2013
Messages
2,400
I loved the comment from a commuter who, when advised to use alternative routes, replied 'show me a route from London to Brighton that doesn't go through East Croydon.

Victoria to Horsham via Sutton.
Horsham to Three Bridges
Three Bridges to Brighton

Might be quicker to use a bicycle.
 

Signal Head

Member
Joined
26 May 2013
Messages
398
AIUI there was a power surge which caused all the protecting devices to kick in (as designed) to protect various bits of sensitive kit - interlockings, transmission, etc. This would explain why some UPS went off line, and why some signalling was restored much more quickly than others.

It affected several other interlockings too, all but one of them relays.

Where are the UPS in the system? I'm not aware of any powering relay interlockings, and even if you backed up the interlocking, unless the main 650v supply feeding the lineside kit is also backed up, there'd be no external kit (signals/points/track circuits) working anyway. Would take a seriously big UPS to do all that.
 

mrmartin

Member
Joined
17 Dec 2012
Messages
1,011
Seems to be an awful lot of UKPN issues recently. Southeastern had some trains stuck in the last week because of intermittent power failures; and now this at East Croydon and (separately) Gatwick Airport...
 

AlexNL

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
1,682
Network Rail's Southern region have posted a detailed preliminary post-mortem analysis of yesterday's failure.

The issue was caused by Network Rail's energy supplier (I assume UK Power Network) providing electricity at a too high voltage during 20 seconds. This caused the safety systems in signalling equipment in 3 locations to kick in and shut down. This caused all signals to revert to red, and required technicians to reset equipment on-site.

UPS systems did not take action as the supply was never interrupted.

See here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...ern/disruption-at-victoria-and-london-bridge/
 

London Trains

Member
Joined
9 Oct 2017
Messages
901
Victoria to Horsham via Sutton.
Horsham to Three Bridges
Three Bridges to Brighton

Might be quicker to use a bicycle.

Would've work well, had any of those 3 services been running during the failure!

Not entirely sure why Sutton route had all its trains cancelled as well, as far as I know it was not under the affected area where everything was stopped, but all of the services were stopped on that route as well?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top