LNER traction problems

Swimbar · 19 Dec 2019

LNER clearly not doing very well with their Azuma and Mk4 fleets.
Today we have a number of trains 'late from the depot' and cancellations due to 'more trains than normal requiring repairs at the same time'
Some services also starting at a point further down the diagram.
Is this Hitachi not meeting their servicing obligations?

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Doomotron · 19 Dec 2019

Swimbar said:
LNER clearly not doing very well with their Azuma and Mk4 fleets.
Today we have a number of trains 'late from the depot' and cancellations due to 'more trains than normal requiring repairs at the same time'
Some services also starting at a point further down the diagram.
Is this Hitachi not meeting their servicing obligations?

Sounds more like LNER giving up with maintaining the 91s.

fgwrich · 19 Dec 2019

Doomotron said:
Sounds more like LNER giving up with maintaining the 91s.

That would be Hitachi too...

(Maintenance of the current LNER fleet switched over to Hitachi as Hitachi took over / were given the depots ahead of the great Hitachi takeover)

superkev · 19 Dec 2019

Are Bounds Green and Craigentiney reduced to just day to day servicing?
K

Dave91131 · 19 Dec 2019

The situation, in my view, can only be described as a total disgrace.

Irrespective of the mk4 vehicles being prepared for use elsewhere (Wales and WCML) and the spares donor locos:

We have mark 4 sets parked at Worksop.

We have mk4 vehicles already scrapped.

We have 91's parked at Leicester, which have done nothing for over 2 months.

We have HST sets including power cars parked at Ely with no known future use.

We have HST sets including power cars parked at Gascoigne Wood, some for a number of weeks now, awaiting future use with EMR.

We have a HST set including power cars pottering around the country on a 4 day jolly, having been out of service for a number of weeks prior.

All of the above whilst the fare paying customer suffers delays, cancellations, short forms, missed connections, extra costs, protracted arguments to get said extra costs back if they're lucky, overcrowding, etc etc etc.

I'm all for the HST farewell jolly and I'm all for ECML HST / mk4 / class 91 vehicles being re-used elsewhere, but seriously, not at a time when numerous timetabled services on a daily basis are being cancelled and short-formed and when said vehicles are simply parked in sidings for weeks or even months on end.

There was a quote somewhere recently from a senior LNER employee about resilience being built in to the outgoing fleet so that disruption could be minimised - what a load of ******** that is.

Disgraceful. Utterly disgraceful.

3270 · 19 Dec 2019

Stored Mark 4 sets BN12 and BN26 re-entered service yesterday.

DarloRich · 19 Dec 2019

Dave91131 said:
The situation, in my view, can only be described as a total disgrace.

Irrespective of the mk4 vehicles being prepared for use elsewhere (Wales and WCML) and the spares donor locos:

We have mark 4 sets parked at Worksop.

We have mk4 vehicles already scrapped.

We have 91's parked at Leicester, which have done nothing for over 2 months.

We have HST sets including power cars parked at Ely with no known future use.

We have HST sets including power cars parked at Gascoigne Wood, some for a number of weeks now, awaiting future use with EMR.

We have a HST set including power cars pottering around the country on a 4 day jolly, having been out of service for a number of weeks prior.

All of the above whilst the fare paying customer suffers delays, cancellations, short forms, missed connections, extra costs, protracted arguments to get said extra costs back if they're lucky, overcrowding, etc etc etc.

I'm all for the HST farewell jolly and I'm all for ECML HST / mk4 / class 91 vehicles being re-used elsewhere, but seriously, not at a time when numerous timetabled services on a daily basis are being cancelled and short-formed and when said vehicles are simply parked in sidings for weeks or even months on end.

There was a quote somewhere recently from a senior LNER employee about resilience being built in to the outgoing fleet so that disruption could be minimised - what a load of ******** that is.

Disgraceful. Utterly disgraceful.

It is almost as if the concept of leasing, legal contracts and costs passes you by. It is entirely possible that those vehicles are no longer the property of lner.

What you have suggested is like you selling your car then popping round on a Sunday night asking to use the car the following week to get to work!

Now you might reasonably suggest lner should have built more contingency into thier plans but it may not be reasonable to expect them to borrow stuff that isn't theirs!

DanNCL · 19 Dec 2019

It's only been Azumas they've been short of today - there's been 20 91s in service today, the same number as there's booked to be.

Swimbar · 19 Dec 2019

DanNCL said:
It's only been Azumas they've been short of today - there's been 20 91s in service today, the same number as there's booked to be.

There seems to be alot of ECS moves to Doncaster by the 2x5 car units every night, including one from Harrogate which obviously isn't helping the situation but this should have been catered for in the planning.
Been waiting to be told that they are one 9 coach Azuma down but they seem to realise that won't wash with the travelling public.
One set out of the total LNER fleet should not have any effect on services

DanNCL · 19 Dec 2019

Swimbar said:
There seems to be alot of ECS moves to Doncaster by the 2x5 car units every night, including one from Harrogate which obviously isn't helping the situation but this should have been catered for in the planning.
Been waiting to be told that they are one 9 coach Azuma down but they seem to realise that won't wash with the travelling public.
One set out of the total LNER fleet should not have any effect on services

They've currently got 11 operational 9-car bi-mode Azumas to replace 14 HSTs so they're 3 sets short on that front. Add in the new Lincoln and Harrogate services in to the mix and there's not enough bi-mode Azumas to operate everything that isn't fully under the wires without short forms.
It really is a poor show from both Hitachi and LNER

Failed Unit · 19 Dec 2019

DanNCL said:
They've currently got 11 operational 9-car bi-mode Azumas to replace 14 HSTs so they're 3 sets short on that front. Add in the new Lincoln and Harrogate services in to the mix and there's not enough bi-mode Azumas to operate everything that isn't fully under the wires without short forms.
It really is a poor show from both Hitachi and LNER

But didn’t they used to have at least 2 HST diagrams 100% under the wires. Along with some that could easily be amended / merged to avoid to diagrams having just a short hop away from the wires.
The Lincoln one actually help as they were always planned to be 5 car.
Saying that I actually see to have more issues on the Azuma’s for faults. But that could be familiarity.

Swimbar · 19 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
But didn’t they used to have at least 2 HST diagrams 100% under the wires. Along with some that could easily be amended / merged to avoid to diagrams having just a short hop away from the wires.
The Lincoln one actually help as they were always planned to be 5 car.
Saying that I actually see to have more issues on the Azuma’s for faults. But that could be familiarity.

They used to hire an EMT HST set every Sunday evening to operate a LDS-KX diagram and other EMT sets during the day on occasions as required whilst they were on layover at Cricklewood.
Clearly this has ceased.
Other than the part sets required by TFW they could have continued with the leasing of some Mk4 sets until things bedded down.
Sitting in Yorkshire, LNER seem to be as bad as Northern some days on consideration for the travelling public. Cancelled due to lack of 'Train Manager' doesn't wash well either

ryan125hst · 19 Dec 2019

I have asked for some diagrams though a few Freedom of Information requests on WhatDoTheyKnow recently. Back on 1st November, LNER sent me the diagrams, week by week, from week commencing Monday 18th November to Monday 9th December. It showed the following:

Four 5-Car Bi-Mode Azuma's in service every week.
Eight 5-Car Electric Azuma's (four pairs) in service every week.
Fifteen 225's in service every week.

Week commencing Monday 18th November 2019:

Two 9-Car Electric Azuma's in service (first of these entering service)
Eight 9-Car Bi-Mode Azuma's in service
Eleven HST's in service (first two withdrawn this week)

Week commencing Monday 25th November 2019:

Four 9-Car Electric Azuma's in service (two additional units entering service)
Eight 9-Car Bi-Mode Azuma's in service
Nine HST's in service (Second two withdrawn this week)

Week commencing Monday 2nd December 2019:

Six 9-Car Electric Azuma's in service (two additional units entering service)
Nine 9-Car Bi-Mode Azuma's in service (an additional unit entering service)
Six HST's in service (Three more withdrawn this week)

Week commencing Monday 9th December 2019:

Eight 9-Car Electric Azuma's in service (two additional units entering service)
Ten 9-Car Bi-Mode Azuma's in service (an additional unit entering service)
Three HST's in service (Three more withdrawn this week)

The plan appeared to be a 9-car electric Azuma replacing a 9-car bi-mode diagram which in turn moved onto a HST diagram, allowing the HST's to be withdrawn. The exception to this was the two additional 9-car bi-modes that entered service in December that directly replaced HST's.

The latest diagrams provided on WhatDoTheyKnow, which are specifically dated for Saturday 14 to Friday 20th December, show the following (for Tuesday to Friday):

Seven 5-Car Bi-Mode Azuma's in service, two pairs and three individual units. There's also an eight unit listed as a spare at Doncaster Carr.
Ten 5-Car Electric Azuma's (five pairs).
Nine 9-Car Bi-Mode Azuma's.
Five 9-Car Electric Azuma's.
Twenty 225's in service, plus a twenty first unit as a spare at Bounds Green and a twenty second was due to run empty from Doncaster to Bounds Green today.

So, as of the timetable change, three more 5-Car Bi-Mode's are in service (plus one [hot?] spare), and an extra 5-Car Electric pair are running. However, they are one 9-Car Bi-Mode short compared to what should be in service after the incident at Neville Hill, but they are also three 9-Car Electric sets short as well.

I don't know if the tenth pair of 5 car 801's was planned or was introduced to cover the shortfall, maybe someone can confirm this? Also, it's clear that 225 usage has had to increase to cover for the HST's as well as the additional services to Lincoln, Harrogate and Edinburgh.

Does anyone know what the delays are with the entry into service of the 9-Car Electric's?

Also, I have also been sent the diagrams from May to October 2019 if anyone is interested. LNER have been fantastic with providing these through FOI.

ryan125hst · 19 Dec 2019

DanNCL said:
They've currently got 11 operational 9-car bi-mode Azumas to replace 14 HSTs so they're 3 sets short on that front. Add in the new Lincoln and Harrogate services in to the mix and there's not enough bi-mode Azumas to operate everything that isn't fully under the wires without short forms.
It really is a poor show from both Hitachi and LNER

Unless plans have changed, I think there are 10 9-car bi-mode diagrams planned ultimately (3 spare units), Source: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...any-limited-application-form-p-section-17.pdf. I'm guessing the four other diagrams are to be covered by the other Azuma types. Don't forget, the Newark terminators are now extended to Lincoln and worked by 5-car bi-modes for example.

800001 · 19 Dec 2019

Hitachi are late delivering the 9 car 801/2 electrics, should of been 1 per week.

They all so still waiting for 800101 the 9 car bimore which has been sat at Eastleigh for several weeks

43096 · 19 Dec 2019

800001 said:
Hitachi are late delivering the 9 car 801/2 electrics, should of been 1 per week.

They all so still waiting for 800101 the 9 car bimore which has been sat at Eastleigh for several weeks

Hitachi knew the HST replacement requirement from the timetable change so why was 800101 not a top priority? The more so after 800109’s accident and the ridiculous amount of damage it suffered.

I get the distinct impression that Hitachi couldn’t give a damn about their customers, and even less their customers’ passengers.

Failed Unit · 19 Dec 2019

EC001 3B81 04+36(MO) 04+40(MX) NL-LCN, 1B81 0730 LCN-KGX, 1S11 1000 KGX-ABD,
1E30 1818 ABD-LDS (Approx one week in six diverted from York to Leeds via Castleford).
EC002 1A04 0605 LDS-KGX, 1N81 0906 KGX-YRK, 1Y84 1202 YRK-KGX, 1S22 1500 KGX-STG, 5S22 20+28 STG-EC.
EC003 3A15 06+15 NL-HGT, 1A15 0734 HGT-KGX, 1B84 1206 KGX-NNG, 1B85 1354 NNG-KGX, 1B88 1606 KGX-NNG, 1B89 1754 NNG-KGX, 1N33 2000 KGX-SUN, 5N33 23+37 SUN-HT.
EC004 1A09 0715 LDS-KGX, 1D09 1003 KGX-LDS, 1A30 1245 LDS-KGX, 1S24 1600 KGX-ABD.
EC005 1S03 0708 LDS-ABD, 1E25 1452 ABD-KGX, 1D36 2333 KGX-LDS (via Shaftholme Jn,
Knottingley, Streethouse, Normanton & Woodlesford).
EC006 3Y08 04+47 HT-SUN, 1Y08 0540 SUN-KGX, 1S16 1200 KGX-INV.
EC007 1S01 0622 NCL-EDB, 1E07 0830 EDB-KGX, 1S20 1400 KGX-ABD.
EC008 3E03 04+00 EC-STG, 1E03 0526 STG-KGX, 1D13 1203 KGX-LDS, 1A36 1445 LDS-KGX,
1D24 1733 KGX-HGT, 5D24 20+58 HGT-NL.
EC009 1E05 0730 EDB–KGX, 1N85 1306 KGX-YRK, 1Y88 1603 YRK-KGX, 1B90 1906 KGX-LCN,
5B90 21+14 LCN-NL.
EC010 1E09 0930 EDB–KGX, 1N87 1506 KGX-YRK, 1Y90 1802 YRK-KGX, 1D33 2133 KGX-LDS.
EC011 1E11 0752 ABD-KGX, 1D21 1603 KGX-LDS, 1A48 1845 LDS-KGX,
1N35 2200 KGX-NCL (via Knottingley, Ferrybridge Jn, Milford Jn & Church Fenton).
EC012 1E15 0952 ABD-KGX, 1S28 1800 KGX-EDB.
EC013 1E13 0755 INV-KGX, 1S26 1700 KGX-EDB.
NL101 3A12 04+20(MO) 04+23(MX) NL-HUL, 1A12 0700 HUL-KGX, 1D11 1103 KGX-LDS,
1A33 1345 LDS-KGX, 1H10 1718 KX-HUL, 1J10 2028 HUL-DON, 5J10 21+20 DON-NL.

from the 125 group. Last timetable.

when you look at these you can see some take a very small amount of time away from the wires.

Dave91131 · 19 Dec 2019

DarloRich said:
It is almost as if the concept of leasing, legal contracts and costs passes you by. It is entirely possible that those vehicles are no longer the property of lner.

What you have suggested is like you selling your car then popping round on a Sunday night asking to use the car the following week to get to work!

Now you might reasonably suggest lner should have built more contingency into thier plans but it may not be reasonable to expect them to borrow stuff that isn't theirs!

DarloRich; your first paragraph. Therein lies the problem in my view.

Irrespective of the points you mention, in 2019 (almost 2020) passengers should not be left at stations while trains are cancelled or wedged in like sheep on the way to the slaughterhouse while trains are short-formed as rolling stock which until a few weeks or even days ago operated the services in question is left to sit idle in sidings.

Failed Unit · 19 Dec 2019

Dave91131 said:
DarloRich; your first paragraph. Therein lies the problem in my view.

Irrespective of the points you mention, in 2019 (almost 2020) passengers should not be left at stations while trains are cancelled or wedged in like sheep on the way to the slaughterhouse while trains are short-formed as rolling stock which until a few weeks or even days ago operated the services in question is left to sit idle in sidings.

I don’t disagree but who should pay for it? That was lucky for GTR that the 313s had no home to go to.

That was one thing BR were good at. I remember mk2s replacing 15x during their introduction problems.

DarloRich · 19 Dec 2019

Dave91131 said:
DarloRich; your first paragraph. Therein lies the problem in my view.

Irrespective of the points you mention, in 2019 (almost 2020) passengers should not be left at stations while trains are cancelled or wedged in like sheep on the way to the slaughterhouse while trains are short-formed as rolling stock which until a few weeks or even days ago operated the services in question is left to sit idle in sidings.

Welcome to the real world of business. Your comfort is less important than the cost of providing that comfort.

Unhappy? Get the National Express!

Ps.it is absolutely not irrespective of my points. They are crucial!

Swimbar · 19 Dec 2019

DarloRich said:
Welcome to the real world of business. Your comfort is less important than the cost of providing that comfort.

Unhappy? Get the National Express!

Ps.it is absolutely not irrespective of my points. They are crucial!

'Business' has made such a lash up of the East Coast Main Line over the years that the operator is now in public ownership!
Scotrail is another example of the 'business' attitude to running trains - now been told they are going to be replaced early.
Looking at Arriva Northern and Trans Pennine Express the 'business' model doesn't appear to work for railways- profit before service everytime.
Have Hitachi got the same attitude?

DarloRich · 19 Dec 2019

Swimbar said:
'Business' has made such a lash up of the East Coast Main Line over the years that the operator is now in public ownership!
Scotrail is another example of the 'business' attitude to running trains - now been told they are going to be replaced early.
Have Hitachi got the same attitude? Profit before service

I am not disagreeing. However we have to live in the real world. LNER have ended the lease on hst and class 91/mkiv. Public or private they dont own the trains. They rent them so dont have complete control as they might have done in the past

To hire these units for a short term emergency measure will be very expensive. They have decided not to. That is business!

As I said you have sold your car: you dont get to play with it anymore!

HSTEd · 19 Dec 2019

This is the glory of Thatcherism.

This is the sort of thing that happens when you start running a railway using the model we use in the UK.

Dave91131 · 20 Dec 2019

DarloRich said:
I am not disagreeing. However we have to live in the real world. LNER have ended the lease on hst and class 91/mkiv. Public or private they dont own the trains. They rent them so dont have complete control as they might have done in the past

To hire these units for a short term emergency measure will be very expensive. They have decided not to. That is business!

As I said you have sold your car: you dont get to play with it anymore!

Extending leases on stock which has no immediate further use when services are being regularly cancelled and/or short-formed shouldn't be very expensive. It should be compulsory. And furthermore, there needs to be some accountability for the dreadful service customers are experiencing on a daily basis (LNER being nowhere near the worst at present as I'm sure we're all aware) and perhaps the cost of compulsory use of otherwise redundant stock to avoid cancellations and short-forms should be this accountability.

In no way do I deny that the business model of the privatised railway puts a very large number of issues far beyond the control of the TOC's (e.g. DarloRich's analogy about not having the use of your old car which is now sold), but I stand by my point that in 2019 passengers in the UK shouldn't be left at stations due to cancellations and short-forms.

And to round off my input in this; for a long journey a cramped, hard riding, likely over-crowded and late, and horrendously expensive 80x / 22x .. or a National Express coach ........... National Express coach for me any day, thanks!

jopsuk · 20 Dec 2019

ryan125hst said:
Unless plans have changed, I think there are 10 9-car bi-mode diagrams planned ultimately (3 spare units), Source: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...any-limited-application-form-p-section-17.pdf. I'm guessing the four other diagrams are to be covered by the other Azuma types. Don't forget, the Newark terminators are now extended to Lincoln and worked by 5-car bi-modes for example.

And the Stirling service is now on an electric diagram, currently using a Mark 4 set. The new trains aren't just being dropped into the old diagrams.

DarloRich · 20 Dec 2019

@Dave91131 I dont disagree. However hiring in contingency stock WILL be expensive. That is the nature of supply and demand. It is a short term hire.

LNER wont do that ( just like you or I wouldnt do that) until such time as the cost of not doing so and any penalties we can extract from our contracts is more than the hire costs

It is almost as if posters here think passengers matter LOL!

Failed Unit · 20 Dec 2019

DarloRich said:
@Dave91131 I dont disagree. However hiring in contingency stock WILL be expensive. That is the nature of supply and demand. It is a short term hire.

LNER wont do that ( just like you or I wouldnt do that) until such time as the cost of not doing so and any penalties we can extract from our contracts is more than the hire costs

It is almost as if posters here think passengers matter LOL!

Personally I think the ROSCO should be paying. It is them failing to deliver not LNER after all. Saying that I understand the deal on the new trains is no train no pay. So I suspect the ROSCO will be focusing on sorting this quickly.
looking at LNERs updates this morning I wouldn’t be unhappy if I was using the route today.

Swimbar · 20 Dec 2019

looking at LNERs updates this morning I wouldn’t be unhappy if I was using the route today.[/QUOTE]

Unless you are travelling from Harrogate to KX where your morning service has been cancelled and is now starting from Leeds and the following two Northern Services to Leeds have been cancelled also!!

jagardner1984 · 20 Dec 2019

Whether it is the TOCs, ROSCOs, Manufacturers or Government, someone needs to realise this is the obvious consequence of working the stock so hard. The PRM deadline has been known about for over a decade, why are we in a position where we are racing to get stock into service in the final months, weeks, hours. Why on other routes are we advertising new exciting routes which we don’t have the staff / stock to operate.

It’s these failures of common sense that give the public such a poor impression of the industry. Perhaps there should be an internal deadline which is well in advance of the public deadline (with financial penalties from the regulator for breaches), to allow the stock time to bed in, handle staff training and transition. It’s obviously ludicrous to be putting out press releases on Friday with “lessons have been learned from the last debacle” and then by Monday be apologising for very recognisable cancellations.

Mag_seven · 20 Dec 2019

HSTEd said:
This is the glory of Thatcherism.

This is the sort of thing that happens when you start running a railway using the model we use in the UK.

It was John Major not Thatcher who privatised the railway.

LNER traction problems

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