Strange occurrence: free travel on Calder Valley route due to severe delays (19/12)

Class195 · 19 Dec 2019

I don’t know if this warrants a thread but earlier tonight I was on a train that had to make additional stops because the previous train was cancelled (hourly) and some of the people boarding the train had been waiting in excess of 90 minutes.

The Northern conductor clearly at the end of his tether approached the people who joined in my carriage and after apologising profusely for the new shambolic implementation of the new timetable said don’t worry if you don’t have a ticket - because of the inconvenience to your journey and leaving you on a freezing cold platform - Northern are letting you travel for free tonight.

Sounds like a great gesture for those without tickets and it was warmly (sic) received.

I guess very few commuters realise the human element and difficulty of the conductors job when things are so poorly planned and delivered - which is after all not there fault.

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BucksBones · 19 Dec 2019

That's very nice but I wonder if the staff manning the barriers are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Class195 · 19 Dec 2019

This was the scene when I left Bradford Interchange. The message to let people travel for free had clearly reached the gate staff.

I should add that the conductor on our train did say shambolic implementation of the new timetable.

My main question I’d like to ask the powers that be at Northern is if the floor staff - conductors - are saying that the new timetable doesn’t work then why has it been implemented?

Doesn’t anyone in a position of power actually listen to their staff for sound bites? Northern really can’t carry on like they have been doing for the past 12 months.

Why can’t Northern and Network Rail sit down together and plan a timetable that can be operated under the constraints they clearly have at present.

Bertie the bus · 19 Dec 2019

I’ve found increasingly on Northern services guards making announcements and blaming their own company, sometimes specific departments, for the problems. As a passenger it is quite refreshing but probably not advisable. On one service terminated short the guard blamed Northern control and I was sat opposite a Northern manager who I doubt was overly impressed.

northernchris · 19 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
Why can’t Northern and Network Rail sit down together and plan a timetable that can be operated under the constraints they clearly have at present.

I sense the relationship between Northern and Network Rail isn't good, and both organisations are equally poor at how they deliver the timetable. The only difference is Network Rail stay behind the scenes, and I'm not convinced they are aware of the consequences of some of their awful decision making (or lack of).

Class195 · 19 Dec 2019

Bertie the bus said:
I’ve found increasingly on Northern services guards making announcements and blaming their own company, sometimes specific departments, for the problems. As a passenger it is quite refreshing but probably not advisable. On one service terminated short the guard blamed Northern control and I was sat opposite a Northern manager who I doubt was overly impressed.

Can you blame them for making such announcements when you factor in the human element?

How many times in the past month has the guard on my train tonight had to deal with passengers waiting 90+ minutes out on a freezing cold platform?

I don’t blame the guards however unprofessional their actions and behaviour has been on recent journeys.

At least it would appear Northern are learning by offering free travel for those inconvenienced by the new timetable/trains being implemented.

Class195 · 19 Dec 2019

northernchris said:
I sense the relationship between Northern and Network Rail isn't good, and both organisations are equally poor at how they deliver the timetable. The only difference is Network Rail stay behind the scenes, and I'm not convinced they are aware of the consequences of some of their awful decision making (or lack of).

Fair comments and going back to my earlier point - why aren’t the people who work the shop floor so to speak being asked if the new timetables will work?

If driver A and guard B know that a short turnaround time isn’t workable, then why for God sake has it been included in the timetable?

What makes matters worse is when Northern cancels a service it is often on the routes where there is only one train an hour which ends up with them having to give passengers free travel.

sheff1 · 19 Dec 2019

Bertie the bus said:
I’ve found increasingly on Northern services guards making announcements and blaming their own company, sometimes specific departments, for the problems.

Yes, I have noticed that too. As Yorkshire folk have a tradition of speaking bluntly, the only real surprise is that is taken so long.

sheff1 · 19 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
Fair comments and going back to my earlier point - why aren’t the people who work the shop floor so to speak being asked if the new timetables will work?

If driver A and guard B know that a short turnaround time isn’t workable, then why for God sake has it been included in the timetable?

A common fault in poorly run large organisations is that the decision makers have zero interest in seeking input from front line workers.

Class195 · 19 Dec 2019

sheff1 said:
A common fault in poorly run large organisations is that the decision makers have zero interest in seeking input from front line workers.

Sadly, the two assaults on despatch staff at Manchester tonight prove things have gone too far now.

The Northern workforce are being made the human shield of an entirely failed private system - this isn’t academic, it’s damaging the lives and mental health of those who work there.

I think it’s time for the introduction of an emergency timetable to make things reliable.

Clearly the Northern network timetable has passed the breaking point stage and is in urgent need of relief.

js1000 · 19 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
Why can’t Northern and* Network Rail sit down together and plan a timetable that can be operated under the constraints they clearly have at present.

*you can add TransPennine Express, Department for Transport and Transport for the North alongside that - all part of the problem also.

northernchris said:
I sense the relationship between Northern and Network Rail isn't good, and both organisations are equally poor at how they deliver the timetable. The only difference is Network Rail stay behind the scenes, and I'm not convinced they are aware of the consequences of some of their awful decision making (or lack of).

They don't get along. It's unfortunate because at the major stations such as Piccadilly, Leeds etc you need co-operation as well as the wider timetable.

randyrippley · 19 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
Sadly, the two assaults on despatch staff at Manchester tonight prove things have gone too far now...................

What two assaults?
There's been one report of a verbal altercation where a stressed would-be customer with limited mobility and a new baby was being given the runaround by the platform staff. We don't know what he said, but from the available reports it rather seems he was provoked.

There's a danger here of yet again accepting the narrative that all staff are infallible and all passengers are argumentive ********.
There have been complaints about the staffing at Victoria for years - has anyone thought that just maybe this bloke was correct?

Class195 · 20 Dec 2019

randyrippley said:
What two assaults?
There's been one report of a verbal altercation where a stressed would-be customer with limited mobility and a new baby was being given the runaround by the platform staff. We don't know what he said, but from the available reports it rather seems he was provoked.

There's a danger here of yet again accepting the narrative that all staff are infallible and all passengers are argumentive ********.
There have been complaints about the staffing at Victoria for years - has anyone thought that just maybe this bloke was correct?

I was told by the conductor on my train that two despatch staff were assaulted at Victoria this evening causing them to down tools and halt services.

transmanche · 20 Dec 2019

randyrippley said:
What two assaults?
There's been one report of a verbal altercation where a stressed would-be customer with limited mobility and a new baby was being given the runaround by the platform staff. We don't know what he said, but from the available reports it rather seems he was provoked.

The BBC is reporting that "a customer threatened staff" rather than them being physically assaulted:

Chris McKeon, of the Local Democracy Reporting Service, said he was on a train to Liverpool when he heard an announcement about 'a threat of serious assault against a member of staff'. "The driver said we were waiting for a despatcher and they've all walked out. He said earlier one staff was abused and he walked out and there was another incident just before we got on the train and they all walked out."

The Manchester Evening News has more detail:

There were initially reports of an assault, but one witness told how a frustrated man 'shouted' at a member of staff, believed to work for Northern as a dispatcher. She said on Twitter: "The man had just recently had an operation on his foot and he had a 10-week-old baby. He was placed on three wrong trains and then when the right one came, he was on the wrong platform. He went up to one of the workers and told them what had happened and what the delay was. All he said was he wasn’t happy, he has a newborn baby and has been passed from pillar to post. He did shout but so did the majority of us who have been waiting to get out of the station."

adding:

John Tilley, north west regional organiser for the RMT union, said: "Staff at Manchester Victoria have removed themselves from a position of danger, as per the worksafe procedure. This is due to an unacceptable level of threats and abuse, due to the chaos at the station all week."

Intermodal · 20 Dec 2019

Going back to the original topic of this thread, I am very unlikely to go through and sell any tickets if we are significantly delayed or a good proportion of the passengers on the train have been significantly inconvenienced.

I did used to sometimes make announcements to the effect of "don't worry about tickets tonight", however I found it had the opposite effect to what I was expecting to happen - the passengers who had already bought tickets were not happy at all and I had a number of conflicts because of it. Now I just tend to walk through without a machine and check if anyone needs assistance in times of severe disruption and if they ask to buy a ticket I say that I'm just trying to make sure everyone can get to where they are going before I worry about that.

56 1/2 · 20 Dec 2019

If passengers have been delayed 60+ there is not a lot of point selling a ticket, the passenger will claim it back as delay repay so Northern are saving the cost of that admin.
A crafty passenger might even buy a short hop ticket on a delayed service and then claim the free return and use it for a longer journey. How long till Northern are broke from all the repaying.

Intermodal · 20 Dec 2019

56 1/2 said:
How long till Northern are broke from all the repaying.

If Northern go broke it certainly won't be due to delay repay. The vast majority of delay repay funds that can be claimed are never claimed. Delay repay expenditure absolutely pales in comparison to fines for cancellations and delay minutes.

Spartacus · 20 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
Fair comments and going back to my earlier point - why aren’t the people who work the shop floor so to speak being asked if the new timetables will work?

If driver A and guard B know that a short turnaround time isn’t workable, then why for God sake has it been included in the timetable?

Often now the minimum, which would normally work if done occasionally, is now being used as the standard by those who might know the rules, but not how they should be implemented in practice. Far, far too many good hands were pretty inevitably lost in the move to MK, and in many cases the ones that stayed were of the compliant type, not the argumentative awkward ones who would have rooted out issues and made a stand long before timetable publication dates. MK's also a pretty poor place to attempt to recruit anyone with a railway background, or even interest.

It's not just a NR/MK thing though, I know of one Northern diagram that has the crew finish working one service at Leeds then their next working is 10 minutes later. From HUDDERSFIELD!

Partially too it's due to ridiculous specifications for services that are impractical, with virtually everyone it seems at levels high enough to make a 'No' decision too worried about their future career progression to actually make that decision when plans are made and tell someone where to stick the plans. They typically move on before the the bomb drops that it doesn't work.

There seems to have been a big time issue this time, not just on Northern, but everywhere, with a good portion of the freight timetable appearing to have been 'ticked up' or copied from the last timetable in areas that have had few changes to the passenger one, but that causes problems with the changes that there have been.

43096 · 20 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
The Northern workforce are being made the human shield of an entirely failed private system - this isn’t academic, it’s damaging the lives and mental health of those who work there.

Ownership of the system is utterly irrelevant and is just you making a political point rather than anything else. Nationalise the TOCs now and you still have the same people doing the same roles in the future. In any case, you seem to have forgotten that Network Rail is nationalised.

thejuggler · 20 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
This was the scene when I left Bradford Interchange. The message to let people travel for free had clearly reached the gate staff.

Don't assume the message got through. Bradford Interchange barriers have been out of action a lot over the last month. It started with one being closed permanently, to all of them being open all day.

yorkie · 20 Dec 2019

Can we please stick to the original topic only.

(If not I shall lock the thread)

Anything else can be discussed in a suitable thread (proposals for temporary timetables or nationalisation belong in Speculative Ideas)

northernchris · 20 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
Fair comments and going back to my earlier point - why aren’t the people who work the shop floor so to speak being asked if the new timetables will work?

You would hope Northern encourage feedback from staff to make improvements where possible. With the May 2019 timetable change, one of the Leeds - Knottingley diagrams was changed from a 155 to a 142, which was often leaving people behind at Leeds in the afternoon peak. After a few weeks this was changed to a 3 car 144, so they did act on feedback. I would also like to see the timetable planners, crew schedulers, signallers etc. spend some time at major stations during the peaks for them to understand how chaotic things can get. Job shadowing can be a good way of making improvements

jfollows · 20 Dec 2019

19/12?
Title now changed.

Bletchleyite · 20 Dec 2019

Intermodal said:
Going back to the original topic of this thread, I am very unlikely to go through and sell any tickets if we are significantly delayed or a good proportion of the passengers on the train have been significantly inconvenienced.

I did used to sometimes make announcements to the effect of "don't worry about tickets tonight", however I found it had the opposite effect to what I was expecting to happen - the passengers who had already bought tickets were not happy at all and I had a number of conflicts because of it. Now I just tend to walk through without a machine and check if anyone needs assistance in times of severe disruption and if they ask to buy a ticket I say that I'm just trying to make sure everyone can get to where they are going before I worry about that.

Yes, that can be an issue (though if things are that bad they're going to get Delay Repay anyway). I'd suggest it's best done passively - don't check/sell tickets, leave barriers open and unstaffed, and make announcements encouraging Delay Repay claims.

Class195 · 20 Dec 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yes, that can be an issue (though if things are that bad they're going to get Delay Repay anyway). I'd suggest it's best done passively - don't check/sell tickets, leave barriers open and unstaffed, and make announcements encouraging Delay Repay claims.

My final point on this is the very least Northern can do is offer free travel for those that have been left out at a cold freezing station for 90 minutes plus because the hourly service has been cancelled.

Dr Hoo · 20 Dec 2019

The overall spirit is fine but it gets hard to operationalise with through tickets and Delay Repay. E.g. a passenger making a through journey from the Calder Valley to London, changing at Leeds, gets into Leeds ‘free’ with no ticket, then has to buy a top price ticket to London there, still arrives in London 90 mins late but can’t then claim Delay Repay if the LNER train runs punctually.

Bletchleyite · 20 Dec 2019

Class195 said:
My final point on this is the very least Northern can do is offer free travel for those that have been left out at a cold freezing station for 90 minutes plus because the hourly service has been cancelled.

There's certainly a good case for not charging people if they'd be entitled to claim it all back via Delay Repay anyway as they could in this sort of case. Why create the admin on both sides? A zero-fare ticket could be issued in such cases, perhaps.

yorkie · 20 Dec 2019

Dr Hoo said:
The overall spirit is fine but it gets hard to operationalise with through tickets and Delay Repay. E.g. a passenger making a through journey from the Calder Valley to London, changing at Leeds, gets into Leeds ‘free’ with no ticket, then has to buy a top price ticket to London there, still arrives in London 90 mins late but can’t then claim Delay Repay if the LNER train runs punctually.

Not true; delay repay would still be applicable, just on a lower amount.

scrapy · 20 Dec 2019

I'm pretty sure that no free travel had been authorised by those in authority at Northern. There was certainly no communication through Tyrell (which Northern usually use for revenue messages). There may have been advice a local manager along the lines of prioritise customer service over revenue and keep yourself safe. It may have been that that conductor had no working revenue equipment anyway so wanted to make a light hearted gesture to keep passengers onside.

To have allowed free travel on one particular line opens the floodgates for people to claim it should automatically be free every time there is disruption and Northern have a system in place for compensating passengers for delays. If a passenger had approached the conductor for a ticket (for delay repay or whatever other reason) they should have been sold one if the conductor could issue one.

Ianno87 · 20 Dec 2019

northernchris said:
I would also like to see the timetable planners, crew schedulers, signallers etc. spend some time at major stations during the peaks for them to understand how chaotic things can get. Job shadowing can be a good way of making improvements

I'd be staggered if they didn't do this already, especially given that most of them probably commute themselves in the peaks, so know full well what it is like directly.

What Northern Planners can't do is achieve the impossible with the finite resources they have available, and the train service specification (set by somebody else) that they are required to achieve, which they can only currently do by stretching these resources to their limits.

Strange occurrence: free travel on Calder Valley route due to severe delays (19/12)

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