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Penalty Fare Notice - Valid Ticket

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Lewis33333

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Hi,

Keeping this short:
Traveled from Paddington to Temple Meads on a valid ticket. A valid ticket was purchased (by my employer) and paper ticket was delivered to me. At the Temple Meads, I'd lost my ticket, was given a penalty fare notice by the officer on duty. He said if I can provide evidence that I did buy a ticket valid for this journey, I can dispute it.

What evidence would I need to provide to prove I had a valid ticket? I'm sure I can get all booking details and still have the paper copy of my seat reservation for the journey. Just looking for specific things I'd need before I ask my company for the details.

Thanks in advance.
 
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mikeg

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You may dispute it, but it doesn't mean that it will do you much good. You have to have a valid ticket there and then, otherwise if you are on a penalty fare service from a station where the conditions for penalty fare issue are met, you are liable to a penalty fare.

It may be the TOC in question has a policy of showing discretion where you subsequently find the ticket. That I don't know. But it would be unusual and also a booking confirmation is not good enough as you could have given the ticket to someone else.

I'd just chalk it up to experience.
 

Lewis33333

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Sorry for lack of knowledge here - TOC?

And even if I can provide the ticket reference number etc, that wouldn't help out my case at all?
 

Master29

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Sorry for lack of knowledge here - TOC?

And even if I can provide the ticket reference number etc, that wouldn't help out my case at all?
Train Operating Company and no. It doesn`t help you as you need to display your ticket when asked. Who's to say you didn't give the ticket to someone else enabling a 2 for 1 journey. No one is accusing you of this but hopefully you'll understand this from the TOC's (presumably GWR in your case) perspective. AS Mikeg says. A life lesson learnt. By all means you can try but don't hold out for anything.
 

furlong

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You need to follow the Appeals process - as should be explained on the notice you were given.

Firstly look for technicalities as mistakes are surprisingly common, such as the notice being issued incorrectly or for the wrong amount or there not being correct notices on display.
[What time/day train did you catch? What amount was the notice issued for?]

There are three levels of appeal, and you might have to go to the third level before you feel anyone listens to an argument that you shouldn't have to pay because you lost the ticket, so be prepared to put a lot of time into it, and even after all that to still lose. You want as much compelling evidence as you can muster - might even try to obtain CCTV from the station (barriers?) and the train itself (was there a ticket check during the journey?).
 

furlong

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What evidence would I need to provide to prove I had a valid ticket
To answer that directly - only the ticket itself at the time of inspection. So it's too late.

What you're trying to do now is either show it's unenforceable because they issued it incorrectly, or else persuade them that it's overwhelmingly likely you are an honest person who had paid for the journey and not done anything fraudulent and that they should use their discretion to cancel it. You get three chances of appeal, and if you lose all three you have to pay it, but then you have a final chance to persuade the train company's customer services team you were dealt with overly harshly and to make a discretionary full or partial refund. (The penalty fare is set at twice the single, so if someone else did pick it up and use it fraudulently they've still recovered double the amount, so you might later persuade customer services to return half.)
 

some bloke

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Belperpete

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What you're trying to do now is either show it's unenforceable because they issued it incorrectly, or else persuade them that it's overwhelmingly likely you are an honest person who had paid for the journey .......
The OP has clearly stated that he did NOT pay for the journey - the ticket was purchased by his employer. It may help if the employer purchased the ticket in his name. Unfortunately, in many cases when my employers purchased a ticket for me, the ticket I was given had the relevant secretary's name! Booking details in somebody else's name are unlikely to be much help.
 

Brissle Girl

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To reiterate @Furlong’s comments, please let us know what service you were on and the amount of the PF, as there have been many instances of the wrong amount being charged.

Ultimately though, if the PF was issued correctly then it is probably down to a matter of goodwill whether it is rescinded, as by not having a valid ticket it is clear that you were in breach of the rules.
 

Lewis33333

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Thanks for the advice all, looks like it's just a pay up scenario then really.

It was London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads, the notice is to pay £109.00, which I believe is correct.
 

gray1404

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If the Penalty Fare is for a £109 then that would have to be double the fare of £54.50

I have just looked at the fares for Paddington to Bristol and I cannot find a walk up (buy on the day) fare for £54.50

However, I notice that the Anytime Day Single is £109. If the Penalty Fare was issued against this as the base fare it would be double that about. So it should be £218.

If the above is correct then it may be that the Penalty Fare has been issued for the incorrect amount. If so, you have grounds for appeal.
 

mikeg

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Or may it be the Op was issued with an unpaid fare notice rather than a penalty fare?
 

nuts & bolts

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Or may it be the Op was issued with an unpaid fare notice rather than a penalty fare?

Yes as it’s indicated this fare, and the OP needs to pay up within 21 days or it will escalate and start racking up fees!
And if there are grounds to appeal the procedure together with payment information is on the back of the UFN.
 

Brissle Girl

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Personally I would get any info you can from your employer quickly, pay up well within the 21 days, along with a covering letter explaining the situation and apologising. Then cross your fingers but be prepared to write it off to experience and move on.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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You get three chances of appeal, and if you lose all three you have to pay it,
The loss of an appeal with the relevant appeals body isn't a Court judgment ordering you to pay the Penalty Fare. Given the fact that no prosecution can take place once the outcome of a first stage appeal has been determined (or the timescale for this has elapsed without a determination), it would be down to GWR to sue the the OP civilly if they wanted to recover their alleged debt. That isn't a process within most train companies' typical procedure so it's unlikely to happen.

Thanks for the advice all, looks like it's just a pay up scenario then really.

It was London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads, the notice is to pay £109.00, which I believe is correct.
£109 isn't the correct amount for any Penalty Fare between Paddington and Temple Meads as it isn't twice of any of the single fares that exist for that journey. If what's actually happened is that you've been issued with an Unpaid Fares Notice for the undiscounted Anytime single fare, as permitted by the National Rail Conditions of Travel, then unfortunately there is unlikely to be any legal grounds for not paying this. You could still appeal to the train company's customer services, asking them to waive or reduce it.

If, however, it is a Penalty Fare as you originally stated, then £109 is an incorrect amount and therefore on that basis alone the Penalty Fare is unenforceable and can be appealed against. See my above comment regarding the significant benefits of appealing, even if your appeal is (incorrectly) rejected.
 

mikeg

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Don't think so as an advance would not be a relevant fare for penalty fare purposes.
 

gray1404

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If indeed it is an Unpaid Fares Notice, it is worth appealing it on the basis a ticket was held and enclose it (or a copy). However, there is no assurances of success but it is worth a try.

Are there any mitigating factors also?

Perhaps the OP could confirm: Where you issued with an Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN) or a Penalty Fare (PF)?
 

furlong

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Yes, what precisely does the paperwork say? Was the journey Paddington to Bristol TM on a single through train? The only valid Penalty Fare of £109 would be for a child travelling on a peak train. Assuming you are an adult (standard class), the Penalty Fare would range from £70.80 to £218 depending on which train you used.
 
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Brissle Girl

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There is a desk at Temple Meads by the barriers at which those without tickets can purchase. It does a good trade whenever I've observed it. (There are some local stations without any ticket issuing facilities.) So, given the fare quoted is the anytime single from London I think it's likely that it was an unpaid fare notice rather than a penalty fare.
 

jimbo99

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He said if I can provide evidence that I did buy a ticket valid for this journey, I can dispute it.

Personally I do not think staff should be saying this if there is no policy of exercising discretion when the passenger does subsequently produce the evidence. If appealing, I would mention what the inspector said.

I suppose staff sometimes makes these comments to pre-empt a confrontation.
 

Wallsendmag

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Personally I do not think staff should be saying this if there is no policy of exercising discretion when the passenger does subsequently produce the evidence. If appealing, I would mention what the inspector said.

I suppose staff sometimes makes these comments to pre-empt a confrontation.
He didn't mention that a positive outcome was possible though.
 

island

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It is pretty frequently reported here and elsewhere that staff say “you’ll be able to appeal/dispute” or similar when issuing Penalty Fares/Unpaid Fares Notices/Travel Irregularity Reports/etc.

Two points on that. They do not say any appeal or dispute will be successful. And in many cases this is a trained conflict avoidance technique – by giving the passenger a perceived “out” the staff member thereby defuses the situation and can exit it safely.
 

WesternLancer

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Hi,

Keeping this short:
Traveled from Paddington to Temple Meads on a valid ticket. A valid ticket was purchased (by my employer) and paper ticket was delivered to me. At the Temple Meads, I'd lost my ticket, was given a penalty fare notice by the officer on duty. He said if I can provide evidence that I did buy a ticket valid for this journey, I can dispute it.

What evidence would I need to provide to prove I had a valid ticket? I'm sure I can get all booking details and still have the paper copy of my seat reservation for the journey. Just looking for specific things I'd need before I ask my company for the details.

Thanks in advance.
It may be that if your company purchases significant amount of staff travel the appeal letter (or request to customer services) sent in the name of their head of purchasing on your behalf - which you could draft for them, might have some impact? If as per the thread you will simply be appealing to their goodwill to be excused or refunded the payment you have made.
 
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