Scotrail84
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Caledonian Sleeper
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185143
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Had my first trip on the Mk5s last night from Glasgow to London in the seats. Wasn't overly impressed.
First of all I had to have an E-ticket, which I hate. First impressions were rather good admittedly, the wall lights were switched off so the ambience in the carriage was reasonably pleasant upon boarding. Though much brighter than the Mk2s they replaced.
The Train Manager promptly conducted a ticket inspection, though was more than happy to come back to me as my phone was dead. The plug socket+USB is a useful addition. The wifi is rather good too, though it restricts streaming. Departure from Glasgow was so smooth I barely noticed it, a far contrast to the bumps and jolts you could get on a Mk2/3. However once we left Glasgow the ride quailty seemed to deteriorate. Overhead luggage racks are very deep, so take care with any small items as they will get pushed to the back. The tables are much smaller than on the Mk2s (which admittedly were very big!) But they do extend.
There certainly was no bump in the night at Carstairs, though while the coupling procedure was done the plug socket stopped providing power and the AC went off. I hadn't realised how noisy the AC was until it came back on! Also whilst messing about with the small lockable storage bin overhead, I managed to lock my drink in it-the passcode I'd set wouldn't work!
I didn't sleep particularly well, though the time I was consuming alcohol until probably didn't help there! Don't rely on the catering either-the screens mention a trolley service for passengers in the seated coach, no sign of it. The door to the lounge car is marked "crew use only".
The seats are awful. I woke up on the approach to Watford, numb and almost in pain. We were 40 minutes early, though no attempt was made to kick us off early at Euston. I won't be using the seats again in a hurry!
First of all I had to have an E-ticket, which I hate. First impressions were rather good admittedly, the wall lights were switched off so the ambience in the carriage was reasonably pleasant upon boarding. Though much brighter than the Mk2s they replaced.
The Train Manager promptly conducted a ticket inspection, though was more than happy to come back to me as my phone was dead. The plug socket+USB is a useful addition. The wifi is rather good too, though it restricts streaming. Departure from Glasgow was so smooth I barely noticed it, a far contrast to the bumps and jolts you could get on a Mk2/3. However once we left Glasgow the ride quailty seemed to deteriorate. Overhead luggage racks are very deep, so take care with any small items as they will get pushed to the back. The tables are much smaller than on the Mk2s (which admittedly were very big!) But they do extend.
There certainly was no bump in the night at Carstairs, though while the coupling procedure was done the plug socket stopped providing power and the AC went off. I hadn't realised how noisy the AC was until it came back on! Also whilst messing about with the small lockable storage bin overhead, I managed to lock my drink in it-the passcode I'd set wouldn't work!
I didn't sleep particularly well, though the time I was consuming alcohol until probably didn't help there! Don't rely on the catering either-the screens mention a trolley service for passengers in the seated coach, no sign of it. The door to the lounge car is marked "crew use only".
The seats are awful. I woke up on the approach to Watford, numb and almost in pain. We were 40 minutes early, though no attempt was made to kick us off early at Euston. I won't be using the seats again in a hurry!
trainmania100
Established Member
66725 working the Wembley to east Grinstead sleeper move. https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=K05888&d=19/12/2019
Never known a trolley service on the sleeper , you just go to the lounge car to get served.
On the new stock, Serco want seated passengers to remain in their own coach and wait until the stewards see fit to serve them. Presumably they're worried that sleeping car passengers will be put off their meals by the sight of seated passengers queuing at a buffet hatch.
Norther Monkey
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Not any more, you're expected to wait for the steward to take orders after departure, with a call button available for any subsequent requirements. In reality the lounge car gets priority so you're lucky on the Highlander (in my experience) to have refreshments delivered before 2330.
As stated the door to the lounge car now states 'crew only'. Keeps us steerage lot away from the proper passengers (sorry, guests).
In reality if you want fed or a nip in the evening buy before you board and research a decent cafe at your destination for the morning.
Norther Monkey
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Completely agree, the seats are awful. I used to get a reasonable amount of sleep on the old stock, I just can't get comfortable enough to drop off in the new seats.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
(I have not used the sleeper for well over a year, when my last booked and planned trip was completely scrubbed because of a severe weather warning leading to all trains cancelled that night. It took over three months and many emails to get a refund.)
Quite a lot of comments on this thread urge CS to 'get back to basics' and 'forget the gimmicks'. Not having been on the new stock I have some difficulty in imagining what is going on but the service would seem to still involve things like:
A bed to sleep in (or a seat to sit on)
Toilet facilities
Washing facilities
Refreshment facilities
A lockable cabin
These do not seem to be remarkably different from what went before, nor from what one might expect in any overnight accommodation establishment.
I get that at the most detailed level there might be things such as key-card locks (welcome to the 20th century) or a different process for ordering breakfast but these hardly seem to be gimmicks.
What is it exactly that CS could stop doing that would make their task easier or free up valuable staff resource for doing remaining things better? Or is it about managing expectations downwards by simply not advertising details of the 'service offer' (beyond the timetable).
Quite a lot of comments on this thread urge CS to 'get back to basics' and 'forget the gimmicks'. Not having been on the new stock I have some difficulty in imagining what is going on but the service would seem to still involve things like:
A bed to sleep in (or a seat to sit on)
Toilet facilities
Washing facilities
Refreshment facilities
A lockable cabin
These do not seem to be remarkably different from what went before, nor from what one might expect in any overnight accommodation establishment.
I get that at the most detailed level there might be things such as key-card locks (welcome to the 20th century) or a different process for ordering breakfast but these hardly seem to be gimmicks.
What is it exactly that CS could stop doing that would make their task easier or free up valuable staff resource for doing remaining things better? Or is it about managing expectations downwards by simply not advertising details of the 'service offer' (beyond the timetable).
paul1609
Established Member
Norther Monkey
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I think expectation management is the big thing. The promotion material suggests a luxury experience, as do many of the prices, when in reality they provide a 'Premier Inn' on rails. That's nothing against Premier Inn, I use them regularly and rate them highly for providing basic, clean, comfortable accommodation. But they're not a luxury experience and the price reflects that. There's tales of couples paying nearly £1000 return on the sleeper, the service offered is worth nothing like that.
The seats are perhaps a little different as often they're very good value. The problem there is that they're bloody uncomfortable (especially when compared to the old stock).
In summary - cabins pleasant but over priced for what they offer, seats cheap but unpleasant.
185143
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Couldn't help but laugh at the signage in the seats "reminding guests to be mindful and respectful of other guests whilst using electronic devices during your stay".
It's a train carriage!
It's a train carriage!
Ah , i see . When i was on the seated in September , the toilet was out of action so seated passengers had to go through the lounge to get to another one.
On the old stock , the lounge car was often other way around so you walked through the lounge to the kithen to get served.
Hipster Dashie
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The lounge and Gower facilities at Fort William are fantastic. I've also used the showers at Glasgow Central and was surprised at how nice they were. Unless it's cheaper booking into a Club Room, for future sleeper rides I intend to book Classic and simply use the showers at the destination station.
Keep reading that CS should go back to basics and stop advertising as luxury, which makes no sense to me.
The stock is there, I can’t see what you cut to make the service basic. So you just charge less whilst costs remain the same, and the taxpayer pays even more outlandish subsidies.
If the product is as bad as people allege then demand will drop and CS will reduce prices anyway.
Criticisms of the concept seem to be ‘I want the most convenient transport for me, and I want other taxpayers to massively subsidise it.’
The stock is there, I can’t see what you cut to make the service basic. So you just charge less whilst costs remain the same, and the taxpayer pays even more outlandish subsidies.
If the product is as bad as people allege then demand will drop and CS will reduce prices anyway.
Criticisms of the concept seem to be ‘I want the most convenient transport for me, and I want other taxpayers to massively subsidise it.’
The staff I spoke to on the last two nights said that the sleeper is significantly busier now, which they put down to the new stock. They think that most people are happy.
I suppose most journeys go well and it's only a minority of passengers who have problems but maybe they are more likely to write reviews.
Also I think most of the passengers are sympathetic to train travel so will put up with a bit of inconvenience that others might not, especially as there are refunds for delays - and problems like showers not working. Hotels on the other hand are often reluctant to refund anything. Apparently the passengers we were delayed several hours to Fort William this week were generally happy as they got to travel in the light north of Glasgow and got a full refund.
Having made a number of journeys on the new stock my overall view is positive and that it will result in increased passengers. Some of the problems will be ironed out but there will always be delays but all modes of transport have these.
I suppose most journeys go well and it's only a minority of passengers who have problems but maybe they are more likely to write reviews.
Also I think most of the passengers are sympathetic to train travel so will put up with a bit of inconvenience that others might not, especially as there are refunds for delays - and problems like showers not working. Hotels on the other hand are often reluctant to refund anything. Apparently the passengers we were delayed several hours to Fort William this week were generally happy as they got to travel in the light north of Glasgow and got a full refund.
Having made a number of journeys on the new stock my overall view is positive and that it will result in increased passengers. Some of the problems will be ironed out but there will always be delays but all modes of transport have these.
Doesn't the 10 trip carnet cater to regular users anyway, and don't have to worry about price fluctuations? It does sound like they should dial down how luxury it is in their promotion as a once-in-a-lifetime experience, and serve one-off tourists, season outdoor enthusiasts going to the highlands, oil workers and business travellers alike.
I do wonder if a budget sleeper pod format is possible (like night jet are using) so people don't have to commit to a whole berth, and get a decent kip that's between the classic rooms and seats for price.
Bassman
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I frequently travel between the Highlands and London. I have limited means and I would prefer to travel by train, an Eco-friendly mode of travel. I am happy for some folk to have an experience of luxury, but as a normal rail passenger I would like the choice to use the sleeper for overnight travel. I find the options of a berth reduced (as it is being booked up) and of a higher price. I also need to be absolutely sure of arriving in time for morning meetings in London.
The basics are reasonable options of sleeper accommodation, and cost and reliability of time of arrival. The seating coach seats are dire. The day train is a much better option for seats..
jagardner1984
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I don’t pretend to understand the full economics of the aviation and rail industries.
I have family the other end of the sleeper route who I like to visit on a fairly regular basis (monthly or so).
I am aware of the environmental consequences of flying.
I normally have a limited timeframe to get to the other end of the country; maximise time with them and come back again. Losing roughly half a day at the start and end of my trip on a Pendolino crawling into Wigan is rather unfortunate.
The sleeper is a perfectly logical, reasonable choice for me.
What I don’t fully understand is why the current pricing / taxation system means I pay a very significant premium to not make the environmentally awful choice.
I don’t dispute the subsidy that is paid to CS. I actually think there is a real opportunity to impose a tariff on air passengers to achieve the twin aim of making the sleeper and day rail services a more cost competitive option, and to expand the sleeper provision. (More rolling stock to run full sets to each lowlander destination perhaps ? More expansive seat, “Premium Economy” options ? I would still question if with the correct political/technical will some form of reclining chair/pod/bed could not be designed to meet the correct standards. If anyone is serious about killing off domestic air travel, and particularly the rush of flights arriving Heathrow/Gatwick/City at 0730-0900, the answers to that problem can’t be provided with the current speeds of day trains. (0300 service from Waverley anyone ?) However it is achieved, night services on whatever mode of transport and of whatever flavour will need to be the solution.
Given the limited capacity of the Sleeper seats, the complaints about comfort and the relatively limited number of destinations served, Im a little surprised someone hasn’t come up with some kind of luxury overnight coach (reclining comfortable leather seats, decent legroom, refreshments, Wi-fi, sleep kit etc) with pricing well above the megabus pricing and well below the sleeper berth pricing. I think, to go over the oft repeated couchette arguments, there is a market. Few pickups through the central belt with a departure from Buchanan Bus Station/St Andrews Bus Station at 11pm into some London terminal/London hotel/gym facility with decent shower arrangements at 7am.
I have family the other end of the sleeper route who I like to visit on a fairly regular basis (monthly or so).
I am aware of the environmental consequences of flying.
I normally have a limited timeframe to get to the other end of the country; maximise time with them and come back again. Losing roughly half a day at the start and end of my trip on a Pendolino crawling into Wigan is rather unfortunate.
The sleeper is a perfectly logical, reasonable choice for me.
What I don’t fully understand is why the current pricing / taxation system means I pay a very significant premium to not make the environmentally awful choice.
I don’t dispute the subsidy that is paid to CS. I actually think there is a real opportunity to impose a tariff on air passengers to achieve the twin aim of making the sleeper and day rail services a more cost competitive option, and to expand the sleeper provision. (More rolling stock to run full sets to each lowlander destination perhaps ? More expansive seat, “Premium Economy” options ? I would still question if with the correct political/technical will some form of reclining chair/pod/bed could not be designed to meet the correct standards. If anyone is serious about killing off domestic air travel, and particularly the rush of flights arriving Heathrow/Gatwick/City at 0730-0900, the answers to that problem can’t be provided with the current speeds of day trains. (0300 service from Waverley anyone ?) However it is achieved, night services on whatever mode of transport and of whatever flavour will need to be the solution.
Given the limited capacity of the Sleeper seats, the complaints about comfort and the relatively limited number of destinations served, Im a little surprised someone hasn’t come up with some kind of luxury overnight coach (reclining comfortable leather seats, decent legroom, refreshments, Wi-fi, sleep kit etc) with pricing well above the megabus pricing and well below the sleeper berth pricing. I think, to go over the oft repeated couchette arguments, there is a market. Few pickups through the central belt with a departure from Buchanan Bus Station/St Andrews Bus Station at 11pm into some London terminal/London hotel/gym facility with decent shower arrangements at 7am.
Well there was Megabus Gold with its couchettes but that was canned. There was no option to have a shower though.
It is the same travelling to Europe. I always go by train but usually could fly for much less than half the price.
This could be altered by taxation if governments chose to intervene on environmental grounds.
Although they are short of a bit of legroom the new Megabus Panoramas on the London to Glasgow route have deep pile moquette seats (far more comfortable and appropriate for overnight travel than sweaty leather) and are perfectly good for overnight travel. No matter how upmarket you make it, some people will not want to travel by coach. Refreshments is a bit of a red herring too as the journey isn't really long enough to need it. Megabus sleeper didn't pay at low occupancy because the business model required the buses to be used during the day and night and there wasn't the market to support the day or night services.
I'd argue that I find it easier to sleep on these coaches than in the seats on the new sleeper trains.
PG
Established Member
I'll beg to differ on that, if Glasgow to London isn't a long enough journey to need refreshments then most TOCs can save themselves a few bob and dispense with the provision of refreshments!
I'll beg to differ on that, if Glasgow to London isn't a long enough journey to need refreshments then most TOCs can save themselves a few bob and dispense with the provision of refreshments!
Sorry, I meant overnight on a coach. I definitely don't dispute the need for refreshments on a day train or the sleeper train. It's just a bit impractical on a coach and, overnight, not necessary.
PG
Established Member
Ah, that I can see, thanks for clarifying
megabusser
Member
It strikes me as a little crazy that the Scottish Government gives a huge subsidy to Caledonian Sleeper’s luxury products, yet the excellent Megabus Gold service, targeting folk with much less income, was allowed to fold. I imagine just having a modest subsidy of something like £20 per passenger could have made a difference.
I do hope that at some point a couchette style service, bus or rail, between Scotland and London happens again.
leightonbd
Member
I can’t help thinking that earlier/later departures are more likely than any variation to the sleeper service.
Swansea (not a perfect comparison, size wise, though used to have a sleeepr service) has a 2148 from Paddington arriving 0044 (and a 2248 arriving 0203, which may be more use for Cardiff). Perfectly adequate for anyone spending a business day in London and having dinner. In the morning there is a departure at 0341 arriving in London at 714, and (better) an 0458 getting in at 0744. No problem making a 9am meeting.
Would it be possible to have a 440 from Edinburgh arriving in London before 9 am? Or a departure at around 2000, arriving back at about 0020-0030 (before 1 am)? Is overnight track work a barrier to that?
Swansea (not a perfect comparison, size wise, though used to have a sleeepr service) has a 2148 from Paddington arriving 0044 (and a 2248 arriving 0203, which may be more use for Cardiff). Perfectly adequate for anyone spending a business day in London and having dinner. In the morning there is a departure at 0341 arriving in London at 714, and (better) an 0458 getting in at 0744. No problem making a 9am meeting.
Would it be possible to have a 440 from Edinburgh arriving in London before 9 am? Or a departure at around 2000, arriving back at about 0020-0030 (before 1 am)? Is overnight track work a barrier to that?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I used it once, it was quite good if a little cosy. I think it just didn't really find its market - it wasn't budget enough (budget travellers would use the seated Megabus) and it wasn't premium enough ("I'm not getting on a bus").